VW Fallout: $2.0 Billion for ZEV Infrastructure Buildout

[Jeff N]

I just noticed this yesterday but after driving over and taking some snapshots I realized there was already some discussion about it here on the Livermore Supercharger thread.

I wrote about it here:

Are Tesla and Electrify America working together? Sort of.

Supercharger - Livermore (Location found, construction started Oct 2018, 20 stalls)

 

[RubberToe]

Here is some good reading material. CARB has put out its assessment of EA's second investment plan. Haven't digested it yet, but here is the link:

https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/vw_info/vsi/vw-zevinvest/documents/cycle_2_staff_analysis_110918.pdf

 

[miimura]

Here is some good reading material. CARB has put out its assessment of EA's second investment plan. Haven't digested it yet, but here is the link:

https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/vw_info/vsi/vw-zevinvest/documents/cycle_2_staff_analysis_110918.pdf

CARB staff posted the proposed Cycle 2 Plan for public review and comment on October 3, 2018. The posting initiated a public comment period that was open through October 26, 2018. CARB staff has reviewed the proposed Cycle 2 Plan and public comments, and has determined that the proposed Cycle 2 Plan conforms with the requirements of the 2.0-liter Consent Decree and the Electrify America commitments made in response to SB 92 and Board Resolution 17-23. CARB staff recommends that the Board approve the proposed Cycle 2 Plan.

Seems like a done deal.

This gave me a little chuckle.

Hydrogen investment
Electrify America received 17 hydrogen submissions this year via their National Outreach website. They examined opportunities in both hydrogen production and retailing, for both light- and heavy-duty usage, and had conversations with the proposal submitters, but did not receive specific investment proposals and were not able to identify an investment opportunity that could be made during the Cycle 2 investment window that they felt would lead to a sustainable business model.

 

[FlatSix911]

Here is some good reading material. CARB has put out its assessment of EA's second investment plan. Haven't digested it yet, but here is the link:

https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/vw_info/vsi/vw-zevinvest/documents/cycle_2_staff_analysis_110918.pdf

What a waste of government-directed resources for social engineering... let the invisible hand of the free market rule

In the proposed Cycle 2 Plan, Electrify America continues its commitment to strive to achieve a goal of at least 35 percent investment in low-income and disadvantaged communities. The proposed Cycle 2 Plan would invest in three new metropolitan areas (Riverside-San Bernardino, Santa Cruz-Watsonville, and Santa Rosa) and three rural areas (the Central, Imperial, and Coachella Valleys) with high concentrations of low-income and disadvantaged communities.

 

[wws]

What a waste of government-directed resources for social engineering... let the invisible hand of the free market rule

In the proposed Cycle 2 Plan, Electrify America continues its commitment to strive to achieve a goal of at least 35 percent investment in low-income and disadvantaged communities. The proposed Cycle 2 Plan would invest in three new metropolitan areas (Riverside-San Bernardino, Santa Cruz-Watsonville, and Santa Rosa) and three rural areas (the Central, Imperial, and Coachella Valleys) with high concentrations of low-income and disadvantaged communities.

Yup. Meanwhile the coverage of I-5 is pathetic.

 

[gilscales]

Well at the prices they charge it would have to be the last place I would go, definitely would pay to keep from a really long wait (charging is fine on road trips but if you have to wait first for a charger to open up) or if I tried to stretch it to far and can't quite make it to a supercharger

 

[mspohr]

What a waste of government-directed resources for social engineering... let the invisible hand of the free market rule

In the proposed Cycle 2 Plan, Electrify America continues its commitment to strive to achieve a goal of at least 35 percent investment in low-income and disadvantaged communities. The proposed Cycle 2 Plan would invest in three new metropolitan areas (Riverside-San Bernardino, Santa Cruz-Watsonville, and Santa Rosa) and three rural areas (the Central, Imperial, and Coachella Valleys) with high concentrations of low-income and disadvantaged communities.

The free market is destroying the climate.
Our only hope is to stop fossil subsidies and redirect investment to clean fuel.
What do you have against low income communities? Don't they deserve clean air?

 

[RubberToe]

Seems like a done deal.

This gave me a little chuckle.

Miimura,
Yes, it does appear to be a done deal. I think one of the larger takeaways from this is that EA ran the numbers on Hydrogen and gave it another pass for 30 months. CARB was fine with this, and I think this really is the last nail in the coffin for Hydrogen as a fuel source for personally owned vehicles. I don't see anyone or any company on the next few years funding the hydrogen infrastructure build out. With the number of battery EVs being sold in that period it is definitely game over.

RT

 

[Jeff N]

Yup. Meanwhile the coverage of I-5 is pathetic.

The whole of I-5 in California is already covered by the Cycle 1 plan which should be built by this time next year (allegedly they are on track for completion by June).

 

[Jeff N]

Miimura,
Yes, it does appear to be a done deal. I think one of the larger takeaways from this is that EA ran the numbers on Hydrogen and gave it another pass for 30 months. CARB was fine with this, and I think this really is the last nail in the coffin for Hydrogen as a fuel source for personally owned vehicles. I don't see anyone or any company on the next few years funding the hydrogen infrastructure build out. With the number of battery EVs being sold in that period it is definitely game over.

RT

Agreed. As I’ve said before, VW is not a leader in fuel cells and has no business self-interest in spending this money on H2.

Recently we seem to be hearing more from fuel cell leaders like Toyota about fuel cell buses and heavy trucks. This makes relatively more sense than passengers cars.

 

[miimura]

Agreed. As I’ve said before, VW is not a leader in fuel cells and has no business self-interest in spending this money on H2.

Recently we seem to be hearing more from fuel cell leaders like Toyota about fuel cell buses and heavy trucks. This makes relatively more sense than passengers cars.

I agree with this. VW need not spend their settlement money on Hydrogen infrastructure. The comments were likely from entities pushing for Hydrogen and they want someone else like EA to subsidize their fantasies. The State has already committed enough money to Hydrogen and they can't even spend it fast enough. They have funding but the entities building the fueling sites can't get permits and stations in the ground to meet their own schedules.

I concluded long ago that Hydrogen doesn't make any sense for light duty privately owned vehicles. If they want to do heavy duty, that's fine because it requires only industrial fueling sites and fewer fueling locations. They're even building a hydrogen powered ferry to cross the SF Bay. It's being built with subsidies, of course.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Agreed. As I’ve said before, VW is not a leader in fuel cells and has no business self-interest in spending this money on H2.

Recently we seem to be hearing more from fuel cell leaders like Toyota about fuel cell buses and heavy trucks. This makes relatively more sense than passengers cars.

Toyota will have the fuel cell buses because they're a main sponsor of the Tokyo Olympics and need _something_ to show.

 

[Jeff N]

Toyota will have the fuel cell buses because they're a main sponsor of the Tokyo Olympics and need _something_ to show.

True, but others are starting to talk about H2 buses and heavy vehicles that don’t already have to otherwise build them. Hyundai/Kia, for example, just introduced a new generation fuel cell SUV but are thinking about getting into fuel cell heavy vehicles.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Miimura,
Yes, it does appear to be a done deal. I think one of the larger takeaways from this is that EA ran the numbers on Hydrogen and gave it another pass for 30 months. CARB was fine with this, and I think this really is the last nail in the coffin for Hydrogen as a fuel source for personally owned vehicles. I don't see anyone or any company on the next few years funding the hydrogen infrastructure build out. With the number of battery EVs being sold in that period it is definitely game over.

RT

If CARB didn't argue for hydrogen funding, you can stick a fork in it (don't pull it out!).

USA:
Total HFCV sales/leases as of 11/1/2018: 5,463
USA:
Total BEV sales/leases as of 11/1/2018: 295,990 (InsideEVs estimates)

Oh wait, that's not all BEVs, that's _just_ Tesla.

InsideEVs notes that just in California, plug-in sales will pass 500,000 this month.

 

[Darmie]

What a waste of government-directed resources for social engineering... let the invisible hand of the free market rule

In the proposed Cycle 2 Plan, Electrify America continues its commitment to strive to achieve a goal of at least 35 percent investment in low-income and disadvantaged communities. The proposed Cycle 2 Plan would invest in three new metropolitan areas (Riverside-San Bernardino, Santa Cruz-Watsonville, and Santa Rosa) and three rural areas (the Central, Imperial, and Coachella Valleys) with high concentrations of low-income and disadvantaged communities.

When I see these terms “disadvantaged communities“, my first thought is the officials that run these communities should be fired.
How is this to benefit the EV community anyway?

The free market is destroying the climate.
Our only hope is to stop fossil subsidies and redirect investment to clean fuel.
What do you have against low income communities? Don't they deserve clean air?

What's next, free EV cars? Oh wait, we already suppose to have cleaned up the environment with cash for clunkers. i guess that $3 billion didn't help much after all.

 

[RubberToe]

When I see these terms “disadvantaged communities“, my first thought is the officials that run these communities should be fired. How is this to benefit the EV community anyway?

These are low income geographic regions. The use case that immediately comes to mind is all the low cost 3 year old Fiat 500 EVs coming off leases. I don't know the current state of vehicles coming off lease, but about a year ago you could grab one of these for $5,000 to $8,000. They only get about 80-90 miles range though.

The good news with these cars is that if you have access to L2 charging, you can run them for 1/4 to 1/2 the cost of ICE cars, depending on your electricity supplier. Someone who doesn't have a lot of disposable income and needs a car could snap one of these up for next to nothing, if only they had L2 charging access. So EA comes along and installs 10-15 L2 chargers at the local "plant/mall/post office/MDU/school" in the "disadvantaged community". All of a sudden the option of buying an EV is the smartest economic decision they could now make. One less cheap polluting ICE car on the road, one more pollution free EV being put to good use. Its a win-win-win scenario all financed by VW.

Of course, not everyone can have a car that only allows for 80-90 miles of range. Even given that, some percentage of drivers could live with that. They would be the beneficiaries of said program.

Many of the lower cost EVs don't have DC fast charging capability, so all the DCFCs that VW/EA may install on the interstates would be of little use to the Fiat 500e drivers described above. I don't see a down side to L2 installs in these communities. Maybe I'm missing something.

RT

 

[Darmie]

if you have access to L2 charging, you can run them for 1/4 to 1/2 the cost of ICE cars, depending on your electricity supplier.

RT

Understand and good points made. Based on a few prices seen, I don't think there is much of a savings for anyone to use EA as a source of charge though.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

When I see these terms “disadvantaged communities“, my first thought is the officials that run these communities should be fired.
How is this to benefit the EV community anyway?




What's next, free EV cars? Oh wait, we already suppose to have cleaned up the environment with cash for clunkers. i guess that $3 billion didn't help much after all.

I find is rather ironic that people are complaining about use of money going against the market, when the money is available due to market failure.

2/3 helping establish the market, 1/3 helping places least likely to be well-served by the established market.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

When I see these terms “disadvantaged communities“, my first thought is the officials that run these communities should be fired.
How is this to benefit the EV community anyway?

I believe the idea is that disadvantaged communities have a greater proportion of high emissions vehicles than the average, and that allowing them the opportunity to utilize a BEV would have a relatively high carbon impact, on a per vehicle basis. This money is only available because of an emissions scandal, afterall.

 

[Jeff N]

Based on a few prices seen, I don't think there is much of a savings for anyone to use EA as a source of charge though.

Those are DC charging prices. I don’t think we know yet what the L2 pricing will be for workplace and multi-residential locations. It’s also possible that EA will introduce subscription rates (like EVgo etc.) that could be cheaper for routine users.