Wall Charger Installation $$$$ - need help choosing the scope of work

[brkaus]

No, the 3rd breaker down from top is a 60A on both sides, these are marked Main on the panel, one 60a 2 pole heats up half the panel while the other 60a 2 pole heats up the other half, look closely at the picture in the link and you will see how it works, however, in the OP's instance with all the heavy loads on the top half I am not sure his works the same way as it would not be able to support the loads in that configuration so....?

I was thinking the left/right third down are for the smaller bottom breakers as you mention. The top two doubles on each side are for big loads.

So to turn off the entire house, six breakers get flipped. I think code allows (or used to allow) up to 6.

 

[M3Mike]

OP, i’m not an electrician, but have been around residential construction quite a bit. i chose to have buried conduit run to a post next to my driveway as i don’t have a garage and wanted to be able to charge one or more EVs (incl my M3) in the future without having to shuffle cars around to reach the connection, and so went with the tesla wall charger mounted on a cypress creek post on a concrete pad outside. no problems in 7 months operation. i would steer clear of anyone who wants to avoid obtaining a permit. an honest licensed electrician wouldn’t do that; and it is very possible that the corresponding inspection you will receive before the job is done will find something the electrician did not do correctly, esp as EV chargers are still a newer phenomenon; so i would always go thru the permit process and inspection to ensure all is up to code for your safety and for future occupants of your house. it seems as though you have an older panel, and in some jurisdictions if you are doing a certain amount of work you are compelled to do a panel “heavy up” or a service “heavy up”. we used to use less electricity when homes were built decades ago, and modern usage can strain the equipment and risk overheating/fire. so codes compel a heavy up as you install new load on the overall house system (increased amperage capacity/rating of the main breaker and thus a whole new panel is often required to accommodate the new main breaker, and then maybe all the circuit breakers if they can’t be reused in the new panel; and/or a new higher capacity service (new meter, and sometimes new service line to the house from the pole in extreme cases)). it can be tough to know if it is needed or if you are just getting the “gold cadillac” treatment from the electrician. an easy solution to this is take a morning and either visit or phone your local permitting office in your local government. take photos and maybe some drawings of what you are trying to do, the bids and scope estimates you got, and ask them for advice. in my experience, they will help. in the end, they are the ones who inspect and approve the work. you will probably need to meet them to show them your panel and the work outside when you are ready for final inspection, and they will be happy to tell you then what was right or what was overkill, etc. but it will be too late to do it right the first time at that point. it is common to get a range of price and scope from electricians and even a range of price for the same scope. depends on how desperate for work the firm/person is. try to lock down the needed and wanted scope by visiting your permit office; then get three quotes from electricians who now see you as an informed customer; pick the fairest and most honest one; always get a permit; safety first, desires second, priced accordingly.

 

[Dana1]

So it appears the installation is going to cost me a lot more than I expected. I bought the wall charger shortly after buying my Model 3 (midrange battery) at the end of December. I called almost all the Tesla recommended electricians for my area. First one on the list didn't want to the hassle permitting. I want permits. Second guy said he could do it from the existing panel and offered this ($):

• Furnish and install conduit, wiring, circuit breaker to serve your new Tesla Wall Connector
• Furnish and install 2-#6 & 1-#10 THHN in conduit from circuit breaker to charger
• Install all properly spaced supports on conduit per NEC
• Install one new 2 pole , 240v, 60 Amp Circuit breaker to serve circuit
• Make final connections in Electric panel and provide proper grounding
• Install a new Tesla Wall Connector (owner supplied)
• Test, Identify and label circuit breaker

Second company offered ($$):
Remove (1) 150-amp interior panel ; Wire, Supply, & Install (1) 150-amp, 120/240-volt single phast MCB panel ; Breakers as required ; Tesla Wall Connector - Wire, Supply, & Install (1) 60-amp, 2-pole breaker ; (20’) Allowance conduit and wire for 60-amp circuit ; Wire & Install (1) Tesla wall connector (provided by customer)

Third company was double the price of the second company and offered ($$$$):
Replace existing 150amp electrical panel with new 150amp MCB panel including new breakers. Run a dedicated
60amp circuit from panel to customer supplied Tesla wall charger and a dedicated 50amp circuit to a NEMA 14-50
outlet. Tesla wall charger to be installed in garage on the right when facing out on the side wall and NEMA 14-50
outlet will be installed outside on wall on same side. Circuits will be ran in conduit and mounted on surface or wall/ceiling.
Including: Permit, inspection, labor and materials to complete job as described above.

Fourth company said ($$): the best and most cost effective solution would be to upgrade the [outside] meter to a 200 amp meter combo providing an extra layer of protection to the existing electrical panel in the garage. From the meter combo we have available space for the Tesla wall connector and their proposal was initially: PROVIDE AND INSTALL NEW METER COMBO 200 AMPS SQUARE "D"; PROVIDE AND INSTALL NEW OVER CURRENT PROTECTION DEVICE FOR
TESLA WALL CONNECTOR; INSTALL NEW TESLA WALL CONNECTOR (TESLA WALL CONNECTOR PROVIDED BY OWNER); PROVIDE AND INSTALL NEW GROUNDING ELECTRODE ACCORDING TO NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE.
He said I have no free room in my current panel for the Tesla charger.

Fourth company also offered the route of changing out the panel with this proposal ($$$$): PROVIDE AND INSTALL NEW METER COMBO 200 AMPS SQUARE "D"; PROVIDE AND INSTALL NEW GROUNDING ELECTRODE ACCORDING TO NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE; PROVIDE AND INSTALL NEW ELECTRICAL PANEL SINGLE PHASE 120/240 VOLT 60 HZ 42 SPACES; PROVIDE AND INSTALL ALL NEW CIRCUIT BREAKERS ACCORDING TO EXISTING LOADS BRAND SQUARE D; PROVIDE POWER FOR NEW TESLA WALL CONNECTOR (TESLA WALL PROVIDE BY OWNER AND INSTALL BY US); REPLACE EXISTING ALUMINUM FEEDERS FOR COOPERS FROM NEW METER; COMBO TO NEW PANEL USING EXISTING CONDUIT TO PROVIDE 200 AMPS

The 4th guy didnt think I have enough amperage coming into the house to run a Tesla charger off the existing panel. The first two companies didn't mention this. My existing panel is I think a split 120 amp panel (60 on each side) - they said it is outdated and needs to be changed but didnt mention there was a problem with available power. I liked the last guys offer best he himself isn't a licensed electrician. He is the President of the company that is licensed by the state of Florida, but he personally doesn't have a license (I looked him up) - is this a problem?

Did you get a quote from Tesla themselves? They did an amazing job with mine. They quote based on the online form and photos you provide.

 

[eprosenx]

View attachment 381335 View attachment 381336 View attachment 381337 View attachment 381338 View attachment 381339 View attachment 381341 View attachment 381342 View attachment 381345 View attachment 381346 View attachment 381347 Hi thanks for the replies. Here are the pictures. I can get better ones if you need them. Couldn't take the panel off myself but can get it done if you still need it. Electricians seemed to concur I have an old Split Panel. The power meter is located on the left side of my house and my garage where the panel exists is on the right side of my house (maybe 40-50 feet away). The panel is on back wall of the garage and I wanted to put the tesla charger on the left inside wall of the garage near the garage door. I know it looks like we'll never get a car in there but we are in the process of cleaning up the garage to make space for the car. My original plan was to also include plug outside the house because I too think my car is going to end up outside quite a bit but the last guy tried to discourage me from doing it, said it wasn't necessary and that its basically a live wire when the cord is plugged in while the tesla wall charger is only live when its plugged into the car.

Sorry for the delay in response! Thanks for the pictures. I have been on vacation and trying to stay a bit unplugged. ;-)

So I still don't have a complete recommendation for you since I need some additional data, but I have a number of comments/observations/questions:

1. You have an older style (but very common) panel where there is no single main disconnect. Those were very expensive and so many manufacturers took advantage of a provision in the code that allows for up to six main disconnects. This allowed them to put some of the heavy house loads directly on their own disconnect (like a range) and then have a smaller "main" disconnect for the small circuits in the bottom of the panel (like 60 amp).

2. You already have six "main disconnects" installed, so unless one can be freed up, I don't see you putting your car charging load onto the bottom part of the panel since it is a large draw.

3. I do not know of any safety concerns with this brand of panel just FYI (but I am not an expert). It is at least not a Stab-Lok or Zinsco panel.

4. Your meter is a 200a meter, but indeed it is possible that your existing service is only like 150a rated. I would need to see more detailed ratings on the breaker panel (hopefully they are inside the panel behind the cover since I don't see them on the door where more modern panels typically have them). I also would need to see the wire type (copper vs. aluminum) and the size of it from the meter to the main panel.

5. Is it safe to assume there is a conduit all the way from the meter outside to the inside panel? What size is that conduit? 2 inches?

6. I don't know how electrician #1 is planning to use the existing panel and add a 60a circuit. Perhaps one of the smaller circuits in the top of the panel could be moved to the lower part of the panel (downstream of the "main disconnect") via the use of "tandem" brakers, but I am not sure this panel supports tandems at all (need more details on it). Most likely that electrician was planning to put tandems in on the top section of the panel, but this would violate the six disconnect rule (though I see it a lot on this style of panel).

7. I don't know why your panel has two breakers in the top half listed as "main disconnect". Typically I expect five spots for 240v breakers on the top (for things like water heaters, electric ranges, AC units, etc...) and then the sixth one is like 60a and it feeds the entire bottom part of the panel. I have never seen one with two main disconnect handles. I would need pictures of the inside of the panel (or better yet a schematic of the panel) to understand it more fully.

8. I am also confused by some of the breaker labels and amperages. Odd that the AC air handler would be 50a - is it a heat pump with backup heat strips? 50a is also pretty decently big AC unit and just a single 50a circuit with backup heat strips does not seem large enough to go with that. I am curious what the "sprinkler system" 20a circuit is? Do you have some kind of well pump for the sprinkler? I am somewhat wondering if one of the two bottom breakers labeled "Main" may be unused? The panel label seems wrong to me.

At the end of the day, if this was my house there is a huge chance I would just ditch that old electrical panel and put in a new modern 200a panel in its place. Then you would have a main 200a disconnect and you could put in any number of circuits downstream of that. I likely would do a 60a circuit to a Wall Connector even though your car won't make use of more than a 40a circuit just for future proofing. I would likely do 3/4 inch EMT conduit (Surface mount) to the wall connector with #6 AWG copper wire and a #10 ground (this is exactly what I have at my house).

To accomplish what I describe could be just as simple as swapping out the main panel (which looks fairly easy from the photos - might require some annoying sheetrock work though). But as one electricians quote mentions, you might need to re-conductor in the conduit (perhaps with copper if the conduit is not large enough to do it with aluminum) in order to get access to a full 200a feed (though you might already have wire good to 200a - the reason they may have proposed re-conductoring is because the internal panel would then be a sub-panel and would require a fourth wire in the conduit.

Anyway, that is my two cents for the moment. With more data we might be able to provide more advice! I think you are on the right track. Good job tracking down all these quotes!

 

[Federico]

I'm not an expert here, but how big is your AC unit? 50A x2 it looks like is a big (or old) unit since most AC will use a 30A/40A breaker.

You can always make some space using 50/20 Quad circuit breaker which will use 2 pole (instead of 4), where you will connect the AC handler and sprinkler, then you will have the space to a regular 2 pole 60A circuit breaker.

 

[eprosenx]

You can always make some space using 50/20 Quad circuit breaker which will use 2 pole (instead of 4), where you will connect the AC handler and sprinkler, then you will have the space to a regular 2 pole 60A circuit breaker.

This is not allowed since it would cause him to have seven "main disconnects" which violates NEC. (also, unclear if that panel is rated for "tandem" breakers - though for sure it is not on those top six 240v positions due to the NEC rule)

 

[Big Dog]

I called almost all the Tesla recommended electricians for my area.

All of the electricians listed on the TSLA website for our area were very expensive. We went with a local, licensed electrician who was much cheaper. (Added a sub-panel into 100 amp circuit, and since we charge mostly at night, when not cooking -- electric -- and a/c is off....)

 

[RorieCutie]

For a midrange you should just have someone install a permitted nema 14-50 which should only be about 400 bucks. You can only charge at 32A anyway