WARNING: I rear-ended someone today while using Auto Pilot in my brand new P90D!

[Vger]

@Vger, I was with you until #3. Mine has always stopped in that scenario.

I guess you were only with me until 1.5, then. :wink:

In point 2, I meant that at least once or twice, I had to take over and brake, or I would have had the same result as the OP.

 

[Max*]

I just want to point out that this statement isn't exactly right, or rather needs clarification.

It is TACC that should slow and then ultimately stop the car. If TACC functions properly, AEB will not be involved at all.

If for some reason TACC has failed to slow the car properly, at that point we could expect AEB to kick in.

After reading everything written in this thread, if I had to take a guess as to what happened, my guesses, in order, would be:

1) TACC wasn't tracking the stopped car for some reason, with the most likely reason being the OP failed to notice (as he acknowledges he may have, though he doesn't think he did) that the car the TACC had been tracking had left the OP's lane, leaving the stopped car directly in front of the OP's car, but not yet tracked.

2) TACC had inadvertently been disengaged by the OP, most likely by a light application of the brake pedal. It could have been a "brushing" of it, or perhaps even a subconscious, light tapping of it at some point when the OP's instincts reverted to a time before TACC existed, since he spent most of his adult life driving without TACC. He may not have realized that he instinctively had lightly touched the brake at some earlier point, to slow the car, because that's what he had been doing forever.

I'm not attaching blame here. The OP has said he is actually hoping that the logs show TACC was not engaged. My guess is that they will, in fact, show that, very possibly for one of the reasons above.

It made sense in my head, think of it as a bulleted list of things that should happen, but did not.

I did not mean it the way you interpreted it, but thanks for clearing it up for other people.

 

[Roamer]

A setting of 2 at highway speeds is a scary thought. Keep in mind most DS don't drive the cars and pass on tribal training information with little practical driving experience.

Just as I would when I am driving I adjust follow distance based on actual driving conditions. Open freeway with light traffic I run max follow. Moderate traffic four. Grinding slow bumper to bumper LA traffic I may drop to 2 or 3 then increase it when traffic flows again.

There is no universal perfect setting. Just like you decide follow distance when you are driving you need to set follow distance when the car is steering and managing speed for you.

I have noticed there can be a little response lag when a car you are following changes lanes. The system stays with that car until it is completly out of your path before tracking the car in front. For acceleration as a slower cars moves out of the way that is a good thing. You don't want to speed up until it has cleared the lane. For a slower car I can see how the system could hesitate before reacting.

It it could be the system was still spacing on the car leaving the lane rather than the car immediately in front. Then had insufficient time to react.

 

[jbcarioca]

Just for clarification TACC numerical settings are not simple distances nor car lengths. The numbers are time in seconds until the Tesla, at present speeds, will occupy the space now occupied by the vehicle in front of the Tesla. A setting of one, for example, equates neatly to the old drivers training mantra of one car length per 10 MPH of speed. Driving with TACC at a setting of one is distinctly NOT unsafe or scary. Were it to have been a single car length it never would have been anywhere near production.

If anybody doubts this post please read the TACC instructions. They do not elaborate but they are explicit about the time based vehicle separation.

 

[msnow]

I guess you were only with me until 1.5, then. :wink:

In point 2, I meant that at least once or twice, I had to take over and brake, or I would have had the same result as the OP.

[emoji6] not sure about 1.5? but agree with point 2 also. It's that I believe this use case (#3) was included and has been working for me. Hope that's clearer.

 

[DieAbetic]

To be honest here, I think this is a problem for us as drivers.

I think most would agree, that if you use a number much larger than "2", in moderate to heavy traffic, you get jerks constantly cutting in front of you and taking away your buffer zone...but for me, in 65-70 mph traffic, I am not comfortable with "2" as I feel that I am following too close...I don't see a way around this for now...

I cant use the "2" distance either. I use at least 4+, although granted it doesn't make much of a difference at speeds under 20mph.

 

[Jool]

Very unfortunate to see someone get into an accident, but I'm glad nobody was seriously injured!

My car hasn't had any issues detecting and adjusting speed to the vehicles in front of me. However, I always have TACC set to 4 or 5 when traveling at speed - I only set it to 2 when I'm stuck in a bumper-to-bumper traffic jam.

I do think that Tesla needs to make the notification that AutoPilot has disengaged more obvious though. The current "bong" sound is a bit understated considering how important the functionality of AutoPilot is, and how devastating the consequences are if the system disengages without the driver immediately noticing it. Maybe something like a red X crossing out the blue steering wheel icon before it grays out?

 

[Cobbler]

Not sure if this was mentioned before, but last week a Tesla owner experienced "a similar incident" with autopilot in Utrecht. No confirmation if autopilot was active or not. Car crashed in the back of a truck.
Please note that the Dutch incident can be completely unrelated.
Source (dutch)

 

[donv]

I think that's actually a bit too easy to do, and if you do it (brush the brake pedal, say) there is no indication except that the TACC indicator switches color. No audio sound, nothing.

I realize that's the standard for traditional cruise controls, but with TACC and other adaptive cruise systems it seems like it should give you a little bit of warning. Does the Mercedes system do anything when you disengage distronic?

I'm actually hoping the logs show i inadvertantly disconnected AP. I can't conceive of having to monitor every slow stop during rush hour traffic, not being able to zone out a bit while the car does its thing.

 

[brkaus]

My near rear-ending someone came from what I believe to be TACC operator error.

Closing in car at stoplight, two lanes in my direction. Car in front was slowing, locked in to the best of my knowledge.

Car next to me started drifting into my lane. I brushed either the wheel (AP) and/or brake in response to car drifting in, which I *think* dropped me out of TACC.

I was still slowing down (regen set to low), so assumed it was fine.

Gap was closing between me and lead car. Slammed on brakes as it got to close for my comfort. Set to 4, so not too bad. Started worrying about TACC operation.

I'm guessing I knocked it out of TACC/AP and didn't realize it. When I was close to car in front, was already pretty slow due to regen, but still feel like I would have hit had not applied brakes.

 

[sandstruck]

I appreciate all the kind comments and posts. I don't take personally any critique of my catlike reflexes or of my wanton disregard for caution. And even though I'm certain I overestimate most of my abilities, I'm fairly certain I fall within the norm (or slightly below the norm in terms of golf). So I'm operating under the assumption that if I were to suffer a slight accident while using AP (or more accurately TACC?), it could potentially happen to a number of other Tesla drivers.

All of us on this site, who have bought or are contemplating purchasing a Tesla, want this technology to work. If the logs show I collided because I disconnected TACC, maybe the company can make a louder warning (or some such fix); if my car had a glitch or a faulty camera or sensor, well, I've taken one for the team.

 

[scottf200]

I appreciate all the kind comments and posts. I don't take personally any critique of my catlike reflexes or of my wanton disregard for caution. And even though I'm certain I overestimate most of my abilities, I'm fairly certain I fall within the norm (or slightly below the norm in terms of golf). So I'm operating under the assumption that if I were to suffer a slight accident while using AP (or more accurately TACC?), it could potentially happen to a number of other Tesla drivers.

All of us on this site, who have bought or are contemplating purchasing a Tesla, want this technology to work. If the logs show I collided because I disconnected TACC, maybe the company can make a louder warning (or some such fix); if my car had a glitch or a faulty camera or sensor, well, I've taken one for the team.

You could not imagine how may lurkers (and poster) are impressed with your attitude. It is impressive and I'm not sure many could do it.

 

[JenniferQ]

You could not imagine how may lurkers (and poster) are impressed with your attitude. It is impressive and I'm not sure many could do it.

Yes, very admirable.

I actually had an incident today that is similar. I was in the left lane cruising along on AP at about 70-75 and a car moved into the right lane and all of a sudden there was a line of cars stopped in front of me. After reading your post, I didn't want to risk it and the car did seem to be reacting too slowly for my comfort level. I braked. I don't know if this was different from 7.0, but I will definitely be more cautious now until we know more. Thanks for posting.

 

[wk057]

AEB is not designed to avoid collisions, only reduce the impact. OP said it made noise before the crash, so it seems to have worked as designed. AEB works between 5 and 85mph and will only reduce your speed by a maximum of 25mph before it disengages (this is all in the manual) Due to the low amount of damage to the vehicle, it looks like it was quite likely down to 5mph at time of impact. AEB success!

As for "taking responsibility" I contend that the OP is not taking responsibility because they continue to state that there is nothing they could have done to avoid the collision. That is patently false, and is not taking full responsibility.

^ This.

Quite a few times using autopilot the car would be heading towards a vehicle ahead faster than I would be doing, or steering somewhere it shouldn't, or whatever other action that would not be a smart thing to be doing on the road. It is driver *assistance* after all.

My golden rule with all of the driver assistance features has been pretty sound: If the car is doing anything I wouldn't do in the same situation, take over. Plain and simple. Even if it's something minor, best to just handle it to be safe.

Bottom line, and no offense intended to the OP, but this accident is 100% the OPs fault. Not 98% or 99%. 100%. No one else has any responsibility to inform owners of anything specific like this or is in any way to even partially blame for this type of accident. In this case it appears the car performed it's duty exactly as it should have and mitigated the impact velocity. The fact that there was impact velocity to mitigate in the first place is of course the fault of the driver.

Extra bottom line: RTFM.

Edit: Looks like I missed this post here, and definitely good of the OP to take responsibility. My above post was intended to be in-general and not really finger pointing at the OP, as it may sound I suppose.

 

[Electricfan]

I want to thank again the OP for posting, and hope any forum member who has an accident or near-accident while using AP to share the experience here on the forum for the benefit of us all.

If the logs show that AP didn't function as it should due to a problem with the camera or radar, that will be very valuable info for the forum. And since the accident, in that case, is 100% on Tesla, I hope they step up and pay for the damage to your car and the other person's car.

 

[wk057]

And since the accident, in that case, is 100% on Tesla, I hope they step up and pay for the damage to your car and the other person's car.

What? You realize it still would actually be 0% on Tesla, right? Not even 1% on Tesla. 0%. Tesla was not driving the car. If the brakes failed or something when the driver went to stop his new car, maybe. But the driver just let his car hurl into another car. That's not Tesla's fault no matter what.

Edit: Wow, I seem to be defending Tesla on some topics lately... whats gotten into me? Oh wait... nothing has changed. Logic still prevails.

 

[Max*]

What? You realize it still would actually be 0% on Tesla, right?

Legally I agree with you, it wouldn't be Tesla's fault at all.

But, I'm... torn on if it should be Tesla's fault or not. If a critical component failed (power steering went out, brakes failed, etc.) it would be Tesla's fault. When a driver's aid fails, I don't see it as black and white.

ETA: I see you added more before I quoted you.

 

[ICUDoc]

I appreciate all the kind comments and posts. I don't take personally any critique of my catlike reflexes or of my wanton disregard for caution. And even though I'm certain I overestimate most of my abilities, I'm fairly certain I fall within the norm (or slightly below the norm in terms of golf). So I'm operating under the assumption that if I were to suffer a slight accident while using AP (or more accurately TACC?), it could potentially happen to a number of other Tesla drivers.

All of us on this site, who have bought or are contemplating purchasing a Tesla, want this technology to work. If the logs show I collided because I disconnected TACC, maybe the company can make a louder warning (or some such fix); if my car had a glitch or a faulty camera or sensor, well, I've taken one for the team.

Quality post, regardless.

 

[wk057]

Legally I agree with you, it wouldn't be Tesla's fault at all.

But, I'm... torn on if it should be Tesla's fault or not. If a critical component failed (power steering went out, brakes failed, etc.) it would be Tesla's fault. When a driver's aid fails, I don't see it as black and white.

ETA: I see you added more before I quoted you.

*shrugs*

I'm pretty sure if the car says "Pay attention to the road, keep your hands on the wheel, be ready to take over at any time" every time you use autopilot, and you ignore this and get into an accident... well, too bad, so sad. The current autopilot hardware isn't designed to be flawless. It's designed with the consideration that a human driver is available at all times to take corrective action when and if needed. It says so all over the manual, release notes, and, again, on the dash every single time you use autopilot just in case you're not one for RT*M.

So, I don't even see how it's not black and white. It's #000000 or #FFFFFF to me... not #7F7F7F

 

[msnow]

What? You realize it still would actually be 0% on Tesla, right? Not even 1% on Tesla. 0%. Tesla was not driving the car. If the brakes failed or something when the driver went to stop his new car, maybe. But the driver just let his car hurl into another car. That's not Tesla's fault no matter what.

Edit: Wow, I seem to be defending Tesla on some topics lately... whats gotten into me? Oh wait... nothing has changed. Logic still prevails.

That's funny you defending Tesla. Perhaps the bounty reward has changed you. [emoji3] Seriously though, if hypothetically Tesla comes back and says the logs show that their system failed that "0%" goes up dramatically in front of a jury or in settlement. That's likely not the case but it's a likely outcome given the hypothetical. Probably not fair but it's the way it works.