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Waymo

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I'm excited about Waymo covering most of Phoenix metro. I wonder if Waymo still avoids freeways? That would make trips very long in Phoenix.

As discussed in the other thread, Waymo is not doing public driverless on freeways yet. But they are letting employees do rides on freeways with a safety driver. So right now, yes, it will make public driverless rides much longer since they avoid freeways. I think Waymo will want to do driverless freeways as soon as possible precisely so that public rides don't take too long. So I do expect Waymo will unlock driverless on freeways soon. I've seen some speculation online that it could be a matter of weeks.
 
Doubtful given that Waymo and Tesla are currently two separate markets. But, I do wonder how 10,000 mi/wk on Waymo compares to the number of miles per week of FSD miles. Not that they are equivalent, but the ratio must now be staggering.

Waymo is doing 10,000 non-employee driverless rides per week, not 10,000 miles per week.

I am sure Tesla FSD Beta does way more miles than Waymo. But the comparison is not equivalent since Waymo is doing driverless rides in a robotaxi while Tesla is doing supervised miles in a consumer car.
 
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Waymo is doing 10,000 non-employee driverless rides per week, not 10,000 miles per week.

I am sure Tesla FSD Beta does way more miles than Waymo. But the comparison is not equivalent since Waymo is doing driverless rides in a robotaxi while Tesla is doing supervised miles in a consumer car.
What's the average distance of a Waymo ride?

I did state that the two were not equivalent, except that, in a sense they are for the purpose of gathering data for training and improving software. It matters not whether a safety driver is behind the wheel for that purpose. Nonetheless, I estimate that there Teslas do about 800,000 FSD drives per day, or 5.6 million drives per week, assuming the average of 400,000 FSD user does 2 drives per day.

As I expected, staggering ratio so far as data collection goes.
 
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With an average of 5 miles (generous given the small area) per ride, we get 50k per week or about 2.5 Million miles per year vs ~360 Million miles for FSDb (total US/Canada).

BTW, at $1 per mile, that is a grand total of $2.5 M of revenue per year.
Why are we comparing non-comparable items?
This is like comparing FSD accident rates to manual driving or AP driving.

Is this just something we do here?

Seems like a waste of typing (and coming from me…).
 
What's the average distance of a Waymo ride?
They don't say. Based on a ramp to 10k rides per week and 1m miles in the past 3 months I guess ~4 revenue miles per ride plus another 4 miles of deadhead. Probably closer to 5/10 in Phoenix and 3/6 in San Francisco.

I think they charge around $2/mile on average, SF a bit higher and Phoenix lower. It's not a fixed rate, though.
 
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Why are we comparing non-comparable items?
This is like comparing FSD accident rates to manual driving or AP driving.

Is this just something we do here?

Seems like a waste of typing (and coming from me…).
It actually is comparable. Both companies are gathering test data for use in developing their software. Waymo is spending Billions to get a few Million in revenue, so their current purpose is certainly not to provide transportation to the public. And Tesla FSDb program is all about Tesla getting massive amounts of data at this point, not just to provide an ADAS system. So, they are comparable with regard to the current goals and amount of data each company gets from the vehicles.
 
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So, they are comparable with regard to the current goals and amount of data each company gets from the vehicles.
Obviously in general any comparison can be done.

Obviously I meant a specific comparison of miles driven. It is like apples and oranges, because they are not similar quantities at all. The units are different (one is (mostly or all depending on what we count) autonomous miles, the others are miles driven by humans).

Or like comparing rated miles on different vehicle models. Just can’t be done. Meaningless.
 
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Obviously in general any comparison can be done.

Obviously I meant a specific comparison of miles driven. It is like apples and oranges, because they are not similar quantities at all. The units are different (one is (mostly or all depending on what we count) autonomous miles, the others are miles driven by humans).

Or like comparing rated miles on different vehicle models. Just can’t be done. Meaningless.
Not really - both are driven by automation. One with a safety driver and the other without. In both cases data can be gathered … potentially with safety driver can give better data by pointing out problems.
 
Not really - both are driven by automation. One with a safety driver and the other without. In both cases data can be gathered … potentially with safety driver can give better data by pointing out problems.
I don’t know about you but when I am using FSD it is pretty clear I am driving.

In any case they are completely different, even if you stipulate that Tesla has a safety driver - as you so perspicaciously point out, there is just no way to compare.
 
I don’t know about you but when I am using FSD it is pretty clear I am driving.

In any case they are completely different, even if you stipulate that Tesla has a safety driver - as you so perspicaciously point out, there is just no way to compare.
The point had to do with the data collection by Waymo and Tesla. In either vehicle, when the car is actively operating the controls, the data generated by the car is just as useful to improving the software as if you were sitting in the rear seat (I don't recommend doing this in a Tesla!). In fact, even if you are manually driving, if you have FSD, the car may be running the FSD planning and generating data back to Tesla based on what it would have done versus what you did. So, even if you are in full control of the car, the miles driven may be useful to Tesla.

The other point is that both companies are still in active development of their AV products and uses the products in the field primarily as data generators for those development efforts. There are some secondary goals. Waymo is obviously using their product to introduce the public to driverless vehicles to accustome them to the concept. Tesla rolls out FSD beta to it's customers to help meet their obligations with FSD. But, I believe that the primary purpose for both companies (as well as Cruise), is to generate driving data to support their developments.

So, from an engineering perspective, a mile driven under self-driving of any type, is equivalent, assuming, of course, that appropriate data is collected! From that perspective, Tesla has the potential to be collect orders of magnitude more data than Waymo or Cruise.

If you are using miles driven by each type of vehicle as a measure of goodness, then no, the two are not comparable. That's been argued here over and over.
 
In either vehicle, when the car is actively operating the controls, the data generated by the car is just as useful to improving the software as if you were sitting in the rear seat
Is this true?
. In fact, even if you are manually driving, if you have FSD, the car may be running the FSD planning and generating data back to Tesla based on what it would have done versus what you did. So, even if you are in full control of the car, the miles driven may be useful to Tesla.
Yes, possibly, so are you using the right metric?
So, from an engineering perspective, a mile driven under self-driving of any type, is equivalent, assuming, of course, that appropriate data is collected!
Are they? Big assumption here! What are the data rates quality etc.? I sure do not know!!! Is Tesla saving all the miles for all future possible campaigns? How about Waymo? I can’t be sure.

How do we compare?
 
I don’t know about you but when I am using FSD it is pretty clear I am driving.
I don’t know about you but when I am using FSD it is pretty clear automation is driving ;)

I think what you mean by you are driving is that you make very frequent interventions - all of which are giving Tesla some data. Now-a-days my drives are usually intervention free. Exceptions being roundabouts and wrong lane selection. So, my drives are actually giving Tesla less data (in terms of what is wrong). ps : Basically the idea is negative feedback is more important than positive in this case.
 
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I don’t know about you but when I am using FSD it is pretty clear automation is driving ;)
Let's see what Tesla has to say about that.



FSD Beta is an SAE Level 2 driver support feature that can provide steering and braking/acceleration support to the driver under certain operating limitations. With FSD Beta, as with all SAE Level 2 driver support features, the driver is responsible for operation of the vehicle whenever the feature is engaged and must constantly supervise the feature and intervene (e.g., steer, brake or accelerate) as needed to maintain safe operation of the vehicle.

So no, legally you are responsible to maintain the safe operation of the vehicle regardless of if FSD beta is engaged. Keep wishing though, someday it will come true but not today.
 
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Seriously, you think I don't know that ? 🤣
Yet you disagree so it would appear you don't in fact know that. There is a clear statement on who is responsible for driving when FSD is engaged. @AlanSubie4Life knows that
I don’t know about you but when I am using FSD it is pretty clear I am driving.
Telsa the manufacturer knows that.
FSD Beta is an SAE Level 2 driver support feature that can provide steering and braking/acceleration support to the driver under certain operating limitations. With FSD Beta, as with all SAE Level 2 driver support features, the driver is responsible for operation of the vehicle whenever the feature is engaged and must constantly supervise the feature and intervene (e.g., steer, brake or accelerate) as needed to maintain safe operation of the vehicle.

You do not seem to know that.
I don’t know about you but when I am using FSD it is pretty clear automation is driving ;)
 
From the Waymo blog, some info on the latest software update that improves reliability, hand gesture detection, more versatile multi-point maneuvers and better performance in inclement weather including very heavy fog:

With this expansion, we’ve released key software updates to increase the reliability of our service, including improved hand gesture detection, more versatile multi-point maneuvers and enhancements to our driving performance in inclement weather like very heavy fog among other things. We also now allow up to four passengers in our vehicles, delivering more flexibility for our riders and improving the everyday usefulness of our service.
 
Yet you disagree so it would appear you don't in fact know that.
You are just interjecting in a banter you don't understand. When FSD is engaged, it is driving - irrespective of the legal liability i.e. it is doing the steering, accelerating and braking etc. I'm just supervising - and as soon as I disengage, I'm driving .... We are talking about who is controlling the car, not who is legally liable.

If you want to continue this stupid argument - you can start a new thread.