Waymo

[diplomat33]

According to the reporter in this news segment, Waymo will launch public driverless ride-hailing in Santa Monica on Oct 11.

 

[Doggydogworld]

According to the reporter in this news segment, Waymo will launch public driverless ride-hailing in Santa Monica on Oct 11.

That's just the previously announced Waymo Tour.

 

[diplomat33]

That's just the previously announced Waymo Tour.

Oh, ok. Thanks.

 

[diplomat33]

Looks like Waymo/Geely will start testing the Geely robotaxi in the US by the end of this year:

The robotaxi project is “proceeding as scheduled,” said the spokesperson, adding that Zeekr will be “sharing with Waymo the first vehicles for testing” in the U.S. by the end of this year.

Waymo-Zeekr robotaxi poised for US testing by end of 2023 | TechCrunch

Nearly two years after Waymo and Geely struck a deal to develop robotaxis for the U.S. market, we are seeing concrete progress in the collaboration.

techcrunch.com

 

[diplomat33]

Elektrek got a driverless ride in Waymo in Santa Monica:

00:00 Intro
00:43 Venice & pedestrians
11:11 Impossible left turn
16:16 Tough merge, well executed
21:00 Santa Monica, cyclist gang
22:34 Stuck at dropoff
26:33 Easy drive home

 

[diplomat33]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1711411200146186371

 

[ThomasD]

Are they still using a waitlist or can anyone in the service area get a ride?

 

[Doggydogworld]

Are they still using a waitlist or can anyone in the service area get a ride?

Still a wait list in SF along with rumors it'll be opened up "soon". No wait list in Phoenix. The LA "Tour" is supposedly open to everyone later this week, but the service area is limited.

 

[ThomasD]

Has Waymo opened up the West areas of the Phoenix Metro Area?

 

[diplomat33]

Are they still using a waitlist or can anyone in the service area get a ride?

There is still a waitlist. Waymo hopes to get everyone off the waitlist in "short order" but they say will scale "responsibly to maintain good service quality and good user experience":

The Alphabet-owned company is in the process of onboarding riders from its waitlist, which it expects to complete in short order.

“This territory expansion applies to those riders who currently have access to our service and all those to be added from the waitlist in the near future,” Waymo spokesperson Christopher Bonelli said in an email. “We are still seeing very strong demand, so we want to scale responsibly to maintain service quality and good user experience.”

Waymo’s robotaxi service is now available to tens of thousands of people in San Francisco

More people in more driverless cars.

www.theverge.com

 

[JulienW]

Elektrek got a driverless ride in Waymo in Santa Monica:



00:00 Intro
00:43 Venice & pedestrians
11:11 Impossible left turn
16:16 Tough merge, well executed
21:00 Santa Monica, cyclist gang
22:34 Stuck at dropoff
26:33 Easy drive home

The "Impossible left turn" got me wondering. Since Waymo had to take over and manually drive the car does it still qualify as a L4 system? Can a certain traffic density be considered outside of the L4's ODD?

 

[diplomat33]

The "Impossible left turn" got me wondering. Since Waymo had to take over and manually drive the car does it still qualify as a L4 system? Can a certain car density be considered outside of the L4 ODD.

The person in the car is mistaken. Waymo people did not take over and drive manually at any point in the ride. There was remote assistance but remote assistance never controls the cars. The entire ride was in autonomous mode 100% of the time. So yes, it is an L4 system.

 

[JulienW]

Waymo did not take over and drive manually. Remote assistance never controls the cars. They simply provide guidance to the autonomous driving and let it drive base on the guidance. The entire ride was in autonomous mode 100% of the time. So yes, it is an L4 system.

They may not have physically drove it but they did have to give it driving instructions on how to proceed. How will this work in an L4 system without on-line monitors (like a private car) with no steering wheel and no one in the car?

 

[diplomat33]

They may not have physically drove it but they have to gave it driving instructions on how to proceed.

In terms of the definition of L4, as long as the car is still in autonomous mode, it still counts as L4.

How will this work in an L4 system without on-line monitors (like a private car) with no steering wheel and no one in the car?

At this point, autonomous driving tech is not reliable yet for that. Right now, the tech needs some sort of back-up. You either keep a human in the car to be the back-up which works great for consumer cars. Or, if you want to go driverless, like in a robotaxi, then you need remote assistance for those cases where the AV needs help. And if you remove the steering controls completely, like in the Zoox or Origin, then you would likely need a way to remote control the car in an emergency.

 

[JulienW]

..... At this point, autonomous driving tech is not reliable yet for that. Right now, the tech needs some sort of back-up. You either keep a human in the car to be the back-up which works great for consumer cars. Or, if you want to go driverless, like in a robotaxi, then you need remote assistance for those cases where the AV needs help. And if you remove the steering controls completely, like in the Zoox or Origin, then you would likely need a way to remote control the car in an emergency.

.....but I plan to start using my Tesla as a Robotaxi "by the end of the year". So Elon MUST have it all figured out. Of course Tesla will probably JUST skip from L2 and go straight to L5 and ALL problems solved. WOW just a couple more months and Waymo is toast.

 

[DrChaos]

In terms of the definition of L4, as long as the car is still in autonomous mode, it still counts as L4.

Except it isn't really. It's a high L3 in those cases. It stopped and told a human (back at the mothership) that assistance is needed, and after being given that assistance, it resumed driving. Human assistance for cognitive decision making & routing is still assistance even if it isn't operating steering & motors directly.

I'm ok to call this L 3.5 and almost all robos will be at this level for a long time.

 

[diplomat33]

Except it isn't really. It's a high L3 in those cases. It stopped and told a human (back at the mothership) that assistance is needed, and after being given that assistance, it resumed driving. Human assistance for cognitive decision making & routing is still assistance even if it isn't operating steering & motors directly.

Sorry but no. That's not the definition. L3 requires the human to physically take over driving. Since the Waymo remote assistance are not taking over driving controls, it is not L3, it is L4. You can provide assistance but if you do not actually take over steering and controls, then it is still autonomous since the computer is controlling steering and controls, so it is L4. Basically if Waymo remote controlled the car, it would not be L4. Since they do not control the car, it is L4. According to the SAE levels, L4 is allowed to have remote assistance as long as it is not remote controlling the car. SAE defines autonomy as only doing the tactical operations of driving. So routing is specifically outside of the SAE definition of autonomy. So the car can get routing assistance and still be L4 if the L4 system is still in charge of tactical operations. You may disagree with that definition. You may feel like any assistance whatsoever, even if not controlling the car, makes it L3 but that is not the official definition, that is your made up definition.

Also, the Waymo car did not resume autonomous driving after getting assistance since it stayed in autonomous the whole time, through the assistance. So your description is inaccurate. And that is another reason why it is L4 since the car stayed in autonomous mode the whole time. If it stopped being autonomous, got assistance and then resumed autonomous mode, it would not be L4. But that is not how Waymo works. The Waymo Driver stays in autonomous mode during assistance. Since the Waymo Driver is in control of the car the whole time, it is L4.

I'm ok to call this L 3.5 and almost all robos will be at this level for a long time.

Sorry but the SAE levels are very clear that levels must be integers. No fractions allowed. So again, you are making up your own definition.

 

[JulienW]

..... L3 requires the human to physically take over driving. Since the Waymo remote assistance are not taking over driving controls, it is not L3, it is L4. You can provide assistance but if you do not actually take over steering and controls, then it is still autonomous since the computer is controlling steering and controls, so it is L4. Basically if Waymo remote controlled the car, it would not be L4. Since they do not control the car, it is L4. According to the SAE levels, L4 is allowed to have remote assistance as long as it is not remote controlling the car.....

A little pedantic and really just being rhetorical but what defines actually taking control? We are fast moving to cars using brake and steer by wire. In this case you are "providing assistance" to what you want the computer to do and a computer is deciding and controlling the car. So you actually have an "illusion" of driving but you are not "physically" driving the car. In a strange way a brake and steer by wire car that has L2 steering assist and emergency braking is oddly "L3" much of the time until you "take over" by asking the computer to turn the wheels or press the brake pedal.

I know the difference is a little like pornography and "you can know it when you see it" but just being physically disconnected from the controls and providing assistance to a computer shouldn't define the SEA levels since we are headed that way even with controls.

EDIT: Not asking for any explanation and have a general understanding of how Waymo and Cruse are monitoring their systems. I know my post is a false equivalency between to two. But it does open a small Pandora's box on what constitutes the line on human assistance and computer control. Seems at some point this will nee to be redefined when the Levels receive an update.

 

[diplomat33]

A little pedantic and really just being rhetorical but what defines actually taking control? We are fast moving to cars using brake and steer by wire. In this case you are "providing assistance" to what you want the computer to do and a computer is deciding and controlling the car. So you actually have an "illusion" of driving but you are not "physically" driving the car. In a strange way a brake and steer by wire car that has L2 steering assist and emergency braking is oddly "L3" much of the time until you "take over" by asking the computer to turn the wheels or press the brakes. I know this is a little like pornography and "you can know it when you see it" but just being physically disconnected from the controls can't define the SEA level since we are headed that way even with controls.

I am talking about who or what is controlling the steering, braking and acceleration. So control by wire is still control. It does not have to be a mechanical control. If the human is physically moving the steering wheel which sends a signal to a computer which sends another signal to the actuator that turns the wheel, the human is controlling the vehicle since they are moving the steering wheel which tells the car how to turn.

And the SAE levels are about more than just physically controlling the car, it is about who makes the driving decisions. L4 means the car is making the driving decisions. If Waymo remote assistance was making driving decisions for the car and then the car's computer carried out those decisions, it would not be L4. But that is not how remote assistance works. In the case of Waymo remote assistance, they are not controlling the steering, braking or acceleration of the vehicle or making decisions for the car in any way. Have you ever been driving with someone in the passenger seat and maybe you asked for their advice? That's what Waymo's remote assistance is like. The Waymo Driver drives the car but when it is unsure about something, it can ask the remote assistance for advice. The remote assistance can suggest a different route but the Waymo Driver is still "in the driver seat" driving the car. The Waymo Driver still makes the driving decisions and controls the car. That is why it is still L4. When you are driving, if your passenger suggests you turn left up ahead instead of going straight, you would not say that you gave control over to your passenger. No! You were in the driver seat, you controlled the steering and braking the whole time. You made the decision whether to turn left or not. The passenger simply made a suggestion that you could take or leave. Same with the Waymo remote assistance.

 

[Yelobird]

I am talking about who or what is controlling the steering, braking and acceleration. So control by wire is still control. It does not have to be a mechanical control. If the human is physically moving the steering wheel which sends a signal to a computer which sends another signal to the actuator that turns the wheel, the human is controlling the vehicle since they are moving the steering wheel which tells the car how to turn.

And the SAE levels are about more than just physically controlling the car, it is about who makes the driving decisions. L4 means the car is making the driving decisions. If Waymo remote assistance was making driving decisions for the car and then the car's computer carried out those decisions, it would not be L4. But that is not how remote assistance works. In the case of Waymo remote assistance, they are not controlling the steering, braking or acceleration of the vehicle or making decisions for the car in any way. Have you ever been driving with someone in the passenger seat and maybe you asked for their advice? That's what Waymo's remote assistance is like. The Waymo Driver drives the car but when it is unsure about something, it can ask the remote assistance for advice. The remote assistance can suggest a different route but the Waymo Driver is still "in the driver seat" driving the car. The Waymo Driver still makes the driving decisions and controls the car. That is why it is still L4. When you are driving, if your passenger suggests you turn left up ahead instead of going straight, you would not say that you gave control over to your passenger. No! You were in the driver seat, you controlled the steering and braking the whole time. You made the decision whether to turn left or not. The passenger simply made a suggestion that you could take or leave. Same with the Waymo remote assistance.

Yet, of the Wamo assistant was not available or on break the car would Stop. You can debate this all day but that is the fact.