Waymo

[diplomat33]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1752385320191172759

Based on what Kevin says, it seems the new sensor rack is an experimental sensor setup to collect training data for winter driving.

 

[flutas]

This is false. The drivable space is not pre-defined. We know this because Waymo encounters construction zones where the drivable space is different from the map and it is able to drive it just fine. There have been other cases where Waymo is able to drive through tight squeezes with no problem. We've seen it in videos. I am not making this up. Waymo engineers have said that the car can define its own drivable space. Waymo defines the drivable space based on the cameras, lidar and radar. If the Waymo did not move in this case, it is for a different reason.

I'm confused how you claim the drivable space isn't pre-defined?

Waymo themselves claim it is.[0]

These maps give the Waymo Driver a deep understanding of its environment, from road types and the distance and dimensions of the road itself, to other features like lane merges, stop signs, crosswalks, and so much more.

Of course, our streets are also evolving, so if a vehicle comes across a road closure or a construction zone that is not reflected in a map, our robust perception system can recognize that and make adjustments in real-time.


Just like a human driver who has driven the same road hundreds of times mostly needs to focus only on the parts of the environment that change, such as other vehicles or pedestrians, the Waymo Driver knows permanent features of the road from our highly-detailed maps and then uses its onboard systems to accurately perceive the world around it, focusing more on moving objects.

If they don't map private driveways as roads, then the car explicitly won't go on to them because it won't think of it as a road (even if it means only going on them by inches). They call out construction zones and road closures in the blog post. A road closure removes a road, construction can modify (add or remove) parts, but this is neither situation.

[0]: The Waymo Driver Handbook: How our highly-detailed maps help unlock new locations for autonomous driving

I'm basically just repeating what the passenger says, pre mapped, there's enough room, no way to change it on the fly, stuck because of that

That little piece missing is indicative of some human going over and polishing it up imo, it's difficult for me to see how a NN would be able to differentiate a tiny piece of "private" driveway in a tiny alley like that

The silence in response to your post is deafening.

 

[diplomat33]

I'm confused how you claim the drivable space isn't pre-defined?

"Pre-defined" implies that it is fixed. But the Waymo Driver can alter its perception of the drivable space based on real-time data from the cameras, lidar and radar. So the drivable space can change.

Waymo themselves claim it is.[0]

If they don't map private driveways as roads, then the car explicitly won't go on to them because it won't think of it as a road (even if it means only going on them by inches). They call out construction zones and road closures in the blog post. A road closure removes a road, construction can modify (add or remove) parts, but this is neither situation.

[0]: The Waymo Driver Handbook: How our highly-detailed maps help unlock new locations for autonomous driving

Of course, Waymo maps the environment ahead of time. But Waymo also says that the map is a prior, not an immutable truth. It can change.

The issue is not that Waymo maps (we all know that), it is the fact that @powertoold claimed "I'm basically just repeating what the passenger says, pre mapped, there's enough room, no way to change it on the fly, stuck because of that"

So powertoold was saying that if the map says X is not drivable, the car just stalls because there is nothing it can do. That does not match what Waymo has said about being able to update maps in near real-time and how the sensors can change the drivable space.

In the Waymo blog that you yourself quoted, it says this:

"Our system can detect when a road has changed by cross-referencing the real-time sensor data with its on-board map. If a change in the roadway is detected, our vehicle can identify it, reroute itself, and automatically share this information with our operations center and the rest of the fleet in real time."

If the Waymo is able to cross reference the map with the real-time sensor data, then that implies the sensors (cameras, lidar and radar) can also define the drivable space.

I just want to make sure we are presenting accurate information about how Waymo works. Yes, Waymo pre-maps. But those maps are priors. They are not immutable. Waymo also uses cameras, lidar and lidar to define the drivable space and make real-time decisions. And Waymo can alter maps in near real-time according to the blog you quoted. So IMO, it is misleading to say that Waymo pre-defines drivable space and that's it, it is fixed, can't be changed, if the map says the space is not drivable, the car just stalls.

The silence in response to your post is deafening.

Uh?! Both me and @Bitdepth refuted what powertoold wrote.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Why does it matter whether or not it was premapped? If it was using a real time map it would also not drive there if it was designed to avoid driving on private property.

 

[diplomat33]

Why does it matter whether or not it was premapped? If it was using a real time map it would also not drive there if it was designed to avoid driving on private property.

Correct.

So, I think a more interesting question would be how Waymo addresses the issue in the video. Would Waymo train their Driver to sometimes go on private property in order to get around an obstacle, turn around, reroute etc... in order to avoid this issue from happening again?

 

[Daniel in SD]

Correct.

So, I think a more interesting question would be how Waymo addresses the issue in the video. Would Waymo train their Driver to sometimes go on private property in order to get around an obstacle, turn around, reroute etc... in order to avoid this issue from happening again?

I would just not drive through alleys.
If the private property hypothesis is correct there may be some legal reason they don’t want to drive there.

 

[diplomat33]

I would just not drive through alleys.
If the private property hypothesis is correct there may be some legal reason they don’t want to drive there.

Yeah, rerouting to avoid alleys and private property would be the other option.

 

[diplomat33]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1752457616897478881

 

[Doggydogworld]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1752457616897478881

They did 700k rides from 1/1/23 - 11/28/23. including pre-2023 rides they were probably at 750-775k total then. So 225-250k in just under two months since. Seems to me they've slowed from the 10x / year ramp rate they mentioned last May.

 

[ThomasD]

Eventually Waymo will have to pull in and out of Private Property such as Driveways due to stopping on a Road in front of someone's House won't always be safe. Most Parking Lots are Private Property and Waymos pull into and out of Parking Lots.

 

[flutas]

"Pre-defined" implies that it is fixed. But the Waymo Driver can alter its perception of the drivable space based on real-time data from the cameras, lidar and radar. So the drivable space can change.



Of course, Waymo maps the environment ahead of time. But Waymo also says that the map is a prior, not an immutable truth. It can change.

The issue is not that Waymo maps (we all know that), it is the fact that @powertoold claimed "I'm basically just repeating what the passenger says, pre mapped, there's enough room, no way to change it on the fly, stuck because of that"

So powertoold was saying that if the map says X is not drivable, the car just stalls because there is nothing it can do. That does not match what Waymo has said about being able to update maps in near real-time and how the sensors can change the drivable space.

In the Waymo blog that you yourself quoted, it says this:

"Our system can detect when a road has changed by cross-referencing the real-time sensor data with its on-board map. If a change in the roadway is detected, our vehicle can identify it, reroute itself, and automatically share this information with our operations center and the rest of the fleet in real time."

If the Waymo is able to cross reference the map with the real-time sensor data, then that implies the sensors (cameras, lidar and radar) can also define the drivable space.

I just want to make sure we are presenting accurate information about how Waymo works. Yes, Waymo pre-maps. But those maps are priors. They are not immutable. Waymo also uses cameras, lidar and lidar to define the drivable space and make real-time decisions. And Waymo can alter maps in near real-time according to the blog you quoted. So IMO, it is misleading to say that Waymo pre-defines drivable space and that's it, it is fixed, can't be changed, if the map says the space is not drivable, the car just stalls.

I honestly think we're talking past each other. I am not claiming Waymo can't change the maps for roads. I am saying that Waymo pre-maps areas, and defines private driveway areas based on those pre-defined maps, and the car can't change the pre-defined status of a part of road (i.e. it won't change a driveway to a road).

If what you were saying is accurate (and Waymo can re-map driveable space) then the car wouldn't know the difference between the driveway and the road, and would have simply gone around the truck as the passenger says there is more than enough space.

Now the real example I'd say here that proves my theory. Why wouldn't driver support simply have the car nudge around if the car software would allow it to do it. It would be the vastly safer option vs backing up down an alley blindly into a road.

Uh?! Both me and @Bitdepth refuted what powertoold wrote.

Really? I don't see a reply after the post I quoted, must be some weird time-warp where only you can see it. Let's see if I quote his post again you can point out where you refuted him.

I'm basically just repeating what the passenger says, pre mapped, there's enough room, no way to change it on the fly, stuck because of that

That little piece missing is indicative of some human going over and polishing it up imo, it's difficult for me to see how a NN would be able to differentiate a tiny piece of "private" driveway in a tiny alley like that

 

[Daniel in SD]

If what you were saying is accurate (and Waymo can re-map driveable space) then the car wouldn't know the difference between the driveway and the road, and would have simply gone around the truck as the passenger says there is more than enough space.

Why do you say that? We can all tell that it would require driving on private property to go around the truck (and I have never seen a map of that alley!).

Now the real example I'd say here that proves my theory. Why wouldn't driver support simply have the car nudge around if the car software would allow it to do it. It would be the vastly safer option vs backing up down an alley blindly into a road.

The driver support probably can't override the cars determination of drivable space. This is more evidence that it's a policy decision by Waymo not to drive there. Obviously they could allow remote assistance to drive anywhere they want but they don't. It's just as safe for an AV to drive backwards as forwards. It's not a one way alley and sensor coverage is just as good in reverse.

 

[diplomat33]

Waymo will be doing an AMA on safety this Friday Feb 2.

This Friday (February 2nd) u/Waymo will be back in the subreddit for another AMA!

Since starting as the Google Self-Driving Car Project in 2009, Waymo has been at the forefront of the global development effort towards safe and reliable autonomous transport, and currently operates driverless robotaxis in Phoenix, San Francisco, and Los Angeles.

Please join us, as Trent Victor, the director Safety Research and Best Practice, as well as Staff Safety Researchers John Scanlon and Kristofer Kusano answer your questions about safety evaluation and measuring performance at around 2PM ET / 11AM PT for about an hour, until 3PM ET / 12PM PT.

Our experts:

Trent Victor has published extensively in the field of crash avoidance and autonomous driving safety research. Prior to Waymo, he was senior technical leader at the Volvo Cars Safety Centre, Adjunct Professor of Crash Avoidance and Driver Behaviour at Chalmers University, Adjunct Professor at the University of Iowa, and a Senior Strategic Specialist for HMI at Volvo Trucks.
Kristofer Kusano is an expert in automated driving, crash avoidance, and injury biomechanics. Prior to Waymo, he was at Toyota Motor North America in Ann Arbor, Michigan leading a group developing ADAS and AD technology, and previous to that, worked as a Research Associate at Virginia Tech in the Center for Injury Biomechanics developing statistical and computational models of the benefits of crash avoidance systems using real-world data sources.
John Scanlon is an expert safety benefits estimation, vehicle dynamics simulation, accident reconstruction, driver behaviour analytics, musculoskeletal biomechanics, and injury risk modelling. Prior to Waymo, he was a Research Engineer at Toyota Motor Corporation's Virginia Tech Center for Injury Biomechanics, where he led a project that aimed to evaluate the potential effectiveness of Intersection Driver Assistance Systems (I-ADAS) in the U.S. vehicle fleet.

Want to submit a question ahead of time? Feel free to drop a comment in this thread, and the team will pull from the pool when the AMA goes up at around 11AM PST on Friday. A second thread will go up on Friday, where you'll also be able to ask your questions LIVE and talk directly with the team.

https://www.reddit.com/r/SelfDrivingCars/comments/1afqsv1

 

[flutas]

Why do you say that? We can all tell that it would require driving on private property to go around the truck (and I have never seen a map of that alley!).

Because the claim was the car can determine it's own drivable space on the fly?

If the car can determine drivable space on the fly, and the driveway is (1) attached to the road and (2) made of the same material as a road...then the car could detect the drivable space in a driveway and continue on it (like a parking lot)... or does the car suddenly need maps to drive?

Either way something doesn't add up.

Leading to the conclusion that either

1: The car can't remap drivable space on the fly in all situations.
2: The car has a pre-loaded set of maps that define private vs public areas and the car won't go against them (which invalidates the "we don't need maps" argument, since that would also be a policy decision that they can't go against).
3: Sunspots clearly caused a bitflip in the computer and both arguments above are wrong.

 

[diplomat33]

Leading to the conclusion that either

1: The car can't remap drivable space on the fly in all situations.
2: The car has a pre-loaded set of maps that define private vs public areas and the car won't go against them (which invalidates the "we don't need maps" argument, since that would also be a policy decision that they can't go against).
3: Sunspots clearly caused a bitflip in the computer and both arguments above are wrong.

I honestly think we're talking past each other. I am not claiming Waymo can't change the maps for roads. I am saying that Waymo pre-maps areas, and defines private driveway areas based on those pre-defined maps, and the car can't change the pre-defined status of a part of road (i.e. it won't change a driveway to a road).

No, it would not change a driveway into a road. It would still map it as a driveway but just label the driveway as drivable if it was allowed to drive there.

We know Waymo pre-maps but we also know that Waymo can change the maps on the fly. But as is often the case in internet discussions, the truth might be more nuanced and not as absolute. It is possible that some drivable space can be changed on the fly and some cannot. Drivable space like construction zones, need to be changed on the fly in order to drive safely. But maybe drivable space like driveways or private property cannot be changed on the fly. I can think of some reasons for that. Driving on private property without permission is trespassing. Also, if the Waymo were to have an accident or stall on private property there could be safety or liability repercussions. So there could be safety, legal or liability reasons for Waymo to not let their cars change certain drivable space. Another issue could be that if the real-time perception accidentally remapped non-drivable space as drivable, it could cause an accident. You would not want the car to accidentally drive on grass, or drive into someone's driveway or get stuck in wet cement (like Cruise did) So to avoid that, maybe the car is not allowed to remap non-drivable as drivable. But other parts that are already mapped as drivable like roads can be changed to non-drivable when it is something like a construction zone that the car has to be able to navigate safely.

 

[diplomat33]

FYI, a reddit user asked Waymo a question for the AMA about the alley situation and whether it is a policy or drivable space issue: So maybe we will get a more definitive answer from Waymo staff about this during the AMA tomorrow.

Logical_Progress_208
•1h ago
In a recently posted video of Waymo in LA, we see the car get stuck in an alley.

Can you say if this car is this car was stuck due to policy, technology or something else?
I.E.: Did the car detect drivable space in the driveway, but by policy Waymo won't go into a driveway even in situations like this?

 

[diplomat33]

JJ Ricks' new Waymo video:

00:00 Demo of the top dome with adjusted shutter speed
00:34 Car pulls up
00:59 Ride start
01:15 Yield to pedestrians with intent to cross
02:02 Cool left turn
02:14 Roundabout
07:10 Through a close yellow light
07:24 Random slowdown
08:25 Sudden sharp swerve for pedestrian in median
14:20 Waymo app is drunk
15:53 Luke click this timestamp
17:57 Cyclist in the road up front
19:27 Entering dense area
19:47 Roundabout
21:14 Cool pullover reaction to sudden car reveal
21:44 Camera cleaning system

 

[enemji]

Eventually Waymo will have to pull in and out of Private Property such as Driveways due to stopping on a Road in front of someone's House won't always be safe. Most Parking Lots are Private Property and Waymos pull into and out of Parking Lots.

I think not.
Private roads are generally not allowed for public service vehicles

 

[flutas]

No, it would not change a driveway into a road. It would still map it as a driveway but just label the driveway as drivable if it was allowed to drive there.

We know Waymo pre-maps but we also know that Waymo can change the maps on the fly. But as is often the case in internet discussions, the truth might be more nuanced and not as absolute. It is possible that some drivable space can be changed on the fly and some cannot. Drivable space like construction zones, need to be changed on the fly in order to drive safely. But maybe drivable space like driveways or private property cannot be changed on the fly. I can think of some reasons for that. Driving on private property without permission is trespassing. Also, if the Waymo were to have an accident or stall on private property there could be safety or liability repercussions. So there could be safety, legal or liability reasons for Waymo to not let their cars change certain drivable space. Another issue could be that if the real-time perception accidentally remapped non-drivable space as drivable, it could cause an accident. You would not want the car to accidentally drive on grass, or drive into someone's driveway or get stuck in wet cement (like Cruise did) So to avoid that, maybe the car is not allowed to remap non-drivable as drivable. But other parts that are already mapped as drivable like roads can be changed to non-drivable when it is something like a construction zone that the car has to be able to navigate safely.

Glad to see you agree with my first conclusion.

1: The car can't remap drivable space on the fly in all situations.

---

I think not.
Private roads are generally not allowed for public service vehicles

I think it's debatable.

Waymo already handles parking lots and those are technically all private roads but not really thought of as the same way.

I'm assuming eventually it will be some sort of authorization thing in the TOS where if you request that spot it's assumed you have the right to go down that road (or a long driveway) and they will try to throw the blame on you if not.

 

[Bladerskb]

I think it's debatable.

Waymo already handles parking lots and those are technically all private roads but not really thought of as the same way.

I'm assuming eventually it will be some sort of authorization thing in the TOS where if you request that spot it's assumed you have the right to go down that road (or a long driveway) and they will try to throw the blame on you if not.

actually i think we had a talk on this in regards to defining L5.

The key word here is publicly accessible. Those private parking lots allow public access so that's why Waymo can drive onto them (Walmart, Target, Costco, CVS, Restaurants, etc).

Driveway are not publicly accessible.