What charge port connector?

[doug]

Let's hope that is all behind us.

Not to spoil the fun here, but isn't the whole connector thing something that has been discussed over and over? The US gets a 1-phase high Amp connector, Europe gets a 3-phase medium-Amp (per phase) connector.

This way the goal is: In both Europe and the US we can charge at roughly 20kW at home or abroad if the EVSE supports it.

In the US it would mean 80A on a single-phase and in the rest of the world it would be 32A 3-phase.

Isn't this what has been discussed over and over on this forum? (Even in this topic)

Yeah it's a total rehash. It came up because Kevin derailed the Supercharger thread to talk about Mennekes. I moved these posts from there to this more appropriate existing thread (which I should probably split off at this point). I suppose as Tesla reveals their Supercharger plans but have yet to show what connector they'll use in Europe, there is some renewed interest in the topic.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

In the US it would mean 80A on a single-phase and in the rest of the world it would be 32A 3-phase.

It's not that simple in the UK where we need 80A single-phase AND 32A three-phase because many sites have one or the other (and sometimes both) :smile:

So long as Tesla support Type 2 Charging Stations then it's irrelevant what's at the car end so long as it does not need adaptors (which will be unlawful).

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Not to spoil the fun here, but isn't the whole connector thing something that has been discussed over and over? The US gets a 1-phase high Amp connector, Europe gets a 3-phase medium-Amp (per phase) connector.

While you may think this is all settled I'm not at all convinced because of what's being said in both official and unofficial Tesla channels.... clearly Tesla made a mistake historically with regards to European charging requirements (and IMO the new connector) and it's important to remind our US colleagues about the realities on the ground here.

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I suppose as Tesla reveals their Supercharger plans but have yet to show what connector they'll use in Europe, there is some renewed interest in the topic.

Don't underestimate the power of the infrastructure deployment companies in the UK.... they are banding together and will speak with one voice in the future. Tesla need to make this easy for these companies or go it alone in Europe.

Let me give you a trivial example... Renault launched the Twizy with a 13A UK plug that does not fit into existing Charging Stations. The infrastructure companies decided as a group that they would not change their Charging Stations and Renault will now modify the car.

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Except I want 44kW 3-phase charging
I'll be willing to pay quite a bit extra for going from 22kW to 44kW too.

I agree but think this is a step too far for Tesla unfortunately.

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Yeah it's a total rehash. It came up because Kevin derailed the Supercharger thread to talk about Mennekes.

To be fair, there is so much ignorance about European charging on your side of the pond that we have to rehash this from time to time. You may not give a damn about drivers outside of the US but IMO Tesla will not have a long term future if they remain a US centric car company.

 

[doug]

To be fair, there is so much ignorance about European charging on your side of the pond that we have to rehash this from time to time. You may not give a damn about drivers outside of the US but IMO Tesla will not have a long term future if they remain a US centric car company.

To be fair, as an American, I've supported having a world standard from the start. Supported Mennekes type-2 when I first saw it. Complained about adopting J1772 type-1 compared to the superior type-2 in the US (until that ship had sailed), and supported 3-phase charging for the Model S. So you should watch who you paint with that brush.

All we really ask on this forum is that people be polite and to stay on topic. You seem to have trouble with both.

 

[Eberhard]

To be fair, as an American, I've supported having a world standard from the start. Supported Mennekes type-2 when I first saw it. Complained about adopting J1772 type-1 compared to the superior type-2 in the US (until that ship had sailed), and supported 3-phase charging for the Model S. So you should watch who you paint with that brush.

All we really ask on this forum is that people be polite and to stay on topic. You seem to have trouble with both.

If Renault is offering his ZOE, an sub compact car with an only 22kWh batterie, with 3-phase 43kW charging for free (standard, no upgrade) what will Tesla do?

Renault will also introduce his chameleon charger in any of the cars beginning next year.

This will start the race of quick charging, no need for expensive CHAdeMO or Teslas Supercharger

 

[stopcrazypp]

Sorry but that's untrue... we are working with a Formula E development team on a road car... we have lots of exotic charging including a 200A Yazaki connector derivative. The CHAdeMO charging hardware that's deployed today is not indicative of what's possible.

That may be possible in future, but none of the chargers TODAY support it. The point was there is no CHAdeMO certified charger that is above 60kW (so certainly none in public use). Reading the CHAdeMO website, the goal from the start was chargers ~50kW (their FAQ mentions why they didn't set a target for 100kW or 200kW, they wanted to strike a balance between needs and cost). Maybe there are prototypes of such higher power chargers, but Tesla already has a 120kW capable charger which they put to public use and have run at 90kW.

As for higher power connector derivatives, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the issue with the CHAdeMO design is that the power pins themselves are too small to support the extra current (I have read somewhere that a Tesla engineer mentioned this), so a derivative would have to add extra pins or use bigger pins, which would affect compatibility with existing stations (defeating the purpose of using the standard in the first place).

But CHAdeMO is a side point. Tesla is unlikely to choose CHAdeMO in the US in the first place since practically all of the non-Japanese automakers backs CCS, plus Tesla has worked with SAE before on J1772 L2 so they would heavily favor J1772-DC. I think the adapter route is a okay solution for now while the two standards battle it out (unless CHAdeMO gets accepted into IEC 62196-3, the adapter can also be used in Europe). J1772-DC will be ready for commercial launch late this year, so we should see results very soon.

As for the whole debate on what will be used in Europe, we are all just guessing. In reality, those of us on the North American side will have little to no effect on what is used in Europe (and vice versa), as it appears the international "standard" is to have the two sides use completely different connectors. Tesla will do what makes sense in Europe for the European market Model S and what makes sense here for the North American market Model S. It's fine that they are not the same (the only real effect is on people who intend to import cars from different markets).

 

[VolkerP]

As for the whole debate on what will be used in Europe, we are all just guessing. In reality, those of us on the North American side will have little to no effect on what is used in Europe (and vice versa), as it appears the international "standard" is to have the two sides use completely different connectors.

Not quite. I expect the global rollout of the supercharger network to stick with the current Tesla02 plug. An EU specific charge port would not be compatible with the supercharger hardware. Any 3 phase AC charge port in Europe should be a separate charging port IMO.

Tesla will do what makes sense in Europe for the European market Model S and what makes sense here for the North American market Model S. It's fine that they are not the same (the only real effect is on people who intend to import cars from different markets).

They already missed the opportunity to make a global plug. Excuse me but my confidence in Tesla's wits to do the best thing in Europe is a bit shaken.

 

[jcstp]

So for Chademo you have Nissan Leaf & Mitsubishi I-Miev
For Mennekes you have Renault Zoë (to come)
for j1772 toyota rav4ev, prius pip and volt/ ampera Leaf & I-miev
And for Tesla the old and new Plug

So saying one or other standard is winning is just too early
Only thing that is winning and is standard on all is the electricity

 

[faheus]

in my opion is the Tesla Connector the nicest one, Small, and not to ugly and bulky.
would be nice if they could install it on ALL cars

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

That may be possible in future, but none of the chargers TODAY support it.

How many Tesla Superchargers are live today and how many vehicles are using it? How does that compare to CHAdeMO?

Future enhancements to CHAdeMO can be deployed quickly but most cars today probably don't need it TODAY.

As for higher power connector derivatives, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the issue with the CHAdeMO design is that the power pins themselves are too small to support the extra current (I have read somewhere that a Tesla engineer mentioned this), so a derivative would have to add extra pins or use bigger pins, which would affect compatibility with existing stations (defeating the purpose of using the standard in the first place).

Nope, it's compatible with existing CHAdeMO deployments... do you really think the CHAdeMO members are sat on their hands or that everything is in the public domain? They have been deploying DC chargers for a long time and know a thing or two about it... lets see what the reality is of Tesla's design before we declare CHAdeMO dead.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

This will start the race of quick charging, no need for expensive CHAdeMO or Teslas Supercharger

fully agree... I've seen a prototype 43kW AC charger for a Leaf from a third party... that really would transform the prospects for DC in Europe :smile:

 

[dpeilow]

lets see what the reality is of Tesla's design before we declare CHAdeMO dead.

fully agree... I've seen a prototype 43kW AC charger for a Leaf from a third party... that really would transform the prospects for DC in Europe :smile:

I don't follow. I presume you mean transform the prospects downwards. Is this prototype 43kW charger something that goes inside the car, an external portable box or a static installation?

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

So saying one or other standard is winning is just too early

The good news is that in Europe all of the AC requirements can be met by Type 2 Charging Stations with the appropriate cable - ZOE, Leaf, I-Miev, Rav4, PiP, Roadster, Model S, etc., etc. :smile:

Today the only DC system deployed in Europe is CHAdeMO and that's the real battle ground going forward IMO.

 

[dsm363]

Just be because one standard got the rollout first or had major backing doesn't mean it will win. Look at HD DVD vs Bluray. It definitely is helpful to be out first and build up a lead though.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Not quite. I expect the global rollout of the supercharger network to stick with the current Tesla02 plug. An EU specific charge port would not be compatible with the supercharger hardware.

Actually if IEC 62196-3 is finalized in time for the supercharger rollout in Europe, it can be made to be compatible. After all, the Tesla02 plug is electrically compatible with J1772 and J1772-DC. The Mennekes version will use the same signaling for DC, so all three should be compatible given the correct connector on the charger. The only sticking point right now is IEC's apparent ban on adapters (otherwise Tesla is almost guaranteed to go the adapter route, maybe with a revised version of the Tesla02 plug to support three phase).

They already missed the opportunity to make a global plug. Excuse me but my confidence in Tesla's wits to do the best thing in Europe is a bit shaken.

That is regrettable, but it seems they are only taking a page from the SAE and IEC book (absolutely no three phase support in North American/Japanese market).

 

[VolkerP]

Thanks for your thoughtful response. The ban of adapters now appears to be the biggest obstacle in the way to globally interoperating charging infrastructure. I have a feeling that our grand kids will study these hassles, shaking their heads with disbelief -- in a way like we look back in European history when Germany was divided into dozens of kingdoms.

 

[Robert.Boston]

The simple answer is for governments to decline to ban adapters. IEC cannot dictate a nation's regulations. The rational decision for regulators would be to require *safe* adapters that have been tested appropriately.

 

[dpeilow]

I have to wonder how closely Tesla were paying attention to this and whether they could have had a representative on the committee to lobby to have adapters included. Then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[jcstp]

maybe the committee where all but electric car producers

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

I don't follow. I presume you mean transform the prospects downwards. Is this prototype 43kW charger something that goes inside the car, an external portable box or a static installation?

In the car... something like the product that Ingineer is developing (except that it's using a connector in the DC wiring harness).

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

The simple answer is for governments to decline to ban adapters. IEC cannot dictate a nation's regulations.

I think we've missed that opportunity... in the UK the IET Code of Practice for Electric Vehicle Charging Equipment Installation mandates BS EN 61851-1 and that will eventually become part of our wiring regulations.