What charge port connector?

[Robert.Boston]

So, at the risk of being excommunicated, I'll say what I think:

Industry standards committees are worthless. Dozens of nattering nabobs from companies that have little commercial interest in actually delivering electric vehicles, endlessly debating details that quickly fall behind the commercial and engineering realities of the market. SAE and IEC can spend the next decade working to agree on a standard, while the market moves along at an exponential pace, making their discussions as irrelevant as the wind scattering leaves on an autumn morning.

Leave'm behind.

Tesla has developed a charging system that meets the needs of its customers. It has committed to meet those needs by developing a charging network. Tesla has challenged the EV industry to wake up and to live in the commercial world. Standards committees may continue their endless debates, but Tesla will move ahead and produce cars and chargers for those cars.

My money is with Tesla. You can make your own decision.

 

[doug]

I am curious to see what Tesla ends up doing in the European market. They always seem to be last minute with this sort of thing. Perhaps they're waiting to see how things shake out.

One thing is clear, though. If Tesla plans to actually follow through on 3-phase charging, they can't do it with their current (TSL02) Model S connector.

I suppose they could have an external charger for the home that connects to 3 phase service and uses the existing Model S connector for DC (like a 30kW Supercharger-lite), but that would be kind of lame.

 

[qwk]

So, at the risk of being excommunicated, I'll say what I think:

Industry standards committees are worthless. Dozens of nattering nabobs from companies that have little commercial interest in actually delivering electric vehicles, endlessly debating details that quickly fall behind the commercial and engineering realities of the market. SAE and IEC can spend the next decade working to agree on a standard, while the market moves along at an exponential pace, making their discussions as irrelevant as the wind scattering leaves on an autumn morning.

Leave'm behind.

Tesla has developed a charging system that meets the needs of its customers. It has committed to meet those needs by developing a charging network. Tesla has challenged the EV industry to wake up and to live in the commercial world. Standards committees may continue their endless debates, but Tesla will move ahead and produce cars and chargers for those cars.

My money is with Tesla. You can make your own decision.

Yep. Tesla has gotten their connector VERY right.

No other existing connector is as consumer friendly design or provides even close to the rate of 90kw let alone 120kw. There shouldnt even be a debate.

 

[dsm363]

Yep. Tesla has gotten their connector VERY right.

No other existing connector is as consumer friendly design or provides even close to the rate of 90kw let alone 120kw. There shouldnt even be a debate.

Agree. Tesla has easily created the best connector out at this point. Elegant and functional and crushes the J1772 standard. If they are able to alter it for three phase systems for Europe then that makes it even better.

 

[doug]

Tesla has developed a charging system that meets the needs of its customers.

Yet somehow they have been a bit tone deaf to the needs of European customers, and got bad advice from RWE (of all places) thinking they could get aways with only single phase. This is after years of experience with Swiss owners stuck charging their Roadsters at 16A.

With the Model S, they really did have the chance to make a single world connector, that would have truly led the way. But for whatever reason they missed that opportunity and will either have to design yet another connector for Europe or use one of the (just about, almost but not quite) existing standards, most likely the Type-2 Combo plug.

 

[dsm363]

Yet somehow they have been a bit tone deaf to the needs of European customers, and got bad advice from RWE (of all places) thinking they could get aways with only single phase. This is after years of experience with Swiss owners stuck charging their Roadsters at 16A.

With the Model S, they really did have the chance to make a single world connector, that would have truly led the way. But for whatever reason they missed that opportunity and will either have to design yet another connector for Europe or use one of the (just about, almost but not quite) existing standards, most likely the Type-2 Combo plug.

That baffles the mind as well. They could do whatever they wanted to without interference from some committee and they didn't think ahead to a world Tesla standard. Maybe they'll just slightly alter their current design for Europe and keep it roughly the same size if that's possible.

 

[Doug_G]

Industry standards committees are worthless.

Certainly standards are a double-edged sword. They make interoperability possible - if done properly - yet also freeze you at a certain technology level. Making a good standard is truly a fine art, and unfortunately these committees are often very blunt instruments.

 

[doug]

That baffles the mind as well. They could do whatever they wanted to without interference from some committee and they didn't think ahead to a world Tesla standard. Maybe they'll just slightly alter their current design for Europe and keep it roughly the same size if that's possible.

Well, I still kinda like this idea as way to at least be self compatible:

I've been told that that the existing charge port opening isn't being enough for the Mennekes Type-2 connector (even without the extra high power DC pins). Maybe along with the amber rear turn signals (required in Europe), they'll make the opening larger in the tail light.

 

[TEG]

...I suppose they could have an external charger for the home that connects to 3 phase service and uses the existing Model S connector for DC (like a 30kW Supercharger-lite), but that would be kind of lame...

Yep, lame as in overly expensive as the biggest downside.

 

[donauker]

Well, I still kinda like this idea as way to at least be self compatible:

I've been told that that the existing charge port opening isn't being enough for the Mennekes Type-2 connector (even without the extra high power DC pins). Maybe along with the amber rear turn signals (required in Europe), they'll make the opening larger in the tail light.

Why not only one extra pin and downsized considerably because it only needs to be sized for 63 amp not 250?

 

[RDoc]

Daimler is Mercedes.

 

[dsm363]

Daimler is Mercedes.

Thank you. I glossed over that but you're right. An impressive collection of companies so looks like that will win out for their vehicles at least. You'd think they could have come up with something better.

 

[doug]

Why not only one extra pin and downsized considerably because it only needs to be sized for 63 amp not 250?

Maybe. Depends whether or not they can use the delta configuration versus the wye (400V versus 230V). That pic was just some guy's idea for a charge port that supports 3-phase and would also be compatible with the existing Model S connector.

 

[Norbert]

Why not only one extra pin and downsized considerably because it only needs to be sized for 63 amp not 250?

Yes, the third/fourth pins could be smaller (also for cost reasons), while the first two need the same size as they will be used with DC (3-phase AC into the car isn't likely to be practical for high power rates, so AC -> DC conversion for those will happen outside the car).

Also for cost reasons, it wouldn't be effective to use a 3-phase capable connector in the US. Those pins/connectors need to be high quality. So I think the whole excitement about the US connectors not being 3-phase capable is an unwarranted storm in the teacup.

- - - Updated - - -

So, at the risk of being excommunicated, I'll say what I think:

Industry standards committees are worthless. Dozens of nattering nabobs from companies that have little commercial interest in actually delivering electric vehicles, endlessly debating details that quickly fall behind the commercial and engineering realities of the market. SAE and IEC can spend the next decade working to agree on a standard, while the market moves along at an exponential pace, making their discussions as irrelevant as the wind scattering leaves on an autumn morning.

Leave'm behind.

Tesla has developed a charging system that meets the needs of its customers. It has committed to meet those needs by developing a charging network. Tesla has challenged the EV industry to wake up and to live in the commercial world. Standards committees may continue their endless debates, but Tesla will move ahead and produce cars and chargers for those cars.

My money is with Tesla. You can make your own decision.

+1

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

There's no CHAdeMO charger in existence that exceeds 60kW

Sorry but that's untrue... we are working with a Formula E development team on a road car... we have lots of exotic charging including a 200A Yazaki connector derivative. The CHAdeMO charging hardware that's deployed today is not indicative of what's possible.

- - - Updated - - -

Took forever for Europe to actually agree on the German Mennekes Type-2 while the French and Italians held out on Type-3. (Have the finally actually agreed??)

I discussed this at a recent SMMT roundtable with a French Government delegation. They told me that they are installing 1 Million Type 2 Charging Stations in France.

And it seems the UK has plenty of Japanese Type-1 (which is what the Europeans call the SAE/Yazaki developed J1772 connector).

Many UK homes deploy Type 1 ("J1772") because that's what's on their current car. However, all commercial locations must install Type 2 ("mennekes"). This all works because you use a Type 2 to Type 1 cable when away from home.

The great thing about Type 2 is that it supports 1 & 3 Phase up to 43kW AC with very low cost hardware (£500 / $800) and will literally be deployed everywhere across Europe.

- - - Updated - - -

Industry standards committees are worthless. Dozens of nattering nabobs from companies that have little commercial interest in actually delivering electric vehicles, endlessly debating details that quickly fall behind the commercial and engineering realities of the market. SAE and IEC can spend the next decade working to agree on a standard, while the market moves along at an exponential pace, making their discussions as irrelevant as the wind scattering leaves on an autumn morning.

Leave'm behind.

You are mistaken if you think these standards are not real today. By the time the Model S is sold to customers in the UK I believe we will have as many as 10,000 public Type 2 Charging Stations and 100 CHAdeMO chargers. Furthermore, France could lead the world with 250,000 Type 2 Charging Stations (1 million within 5 years), and The Netherlands hundreds of CHAdeMO.

Tesla has developed a charging system that meets the needs of its customers. It has committed to meet those needs by developing a charging network. Tesla has challenged the EV industry to wake up and to live in the commercial world. Standards committees may continue their endless debates, but Tesla will move ahead and produce cars and chargers for those cars.

My money is with Tesla. You can make your own decision.

In the UK today we have 9 public Tesla 16kW HPC Charging Stations. If Tesla introduce another proprietary solution here they will completely miss out on the wave of infrastructure deployments that accompany high volume cars like the Renault ZOE. Tesla need to engage with the people who are deploying infrastructure and create a mass market for EV's. Deploying a proprietary charging standard will hurt Tesla here.

Let me give you an example of the difference in dealing with Tesla and Renault with regards to EV charging infrastructure. I rang Tesla today and they can neither tell me when I can purchase a Model S in the UK nor what charging the car will support (nothing surprising there). Renault told me in 2010 what charging would be available on the first 4 EV's they deliver AND they've had a Charging Station compatibility programme (Z.E. Ready) for testing hardware in place from early 2011.

 

[jkirkebo]

Maybe. Depends whether or not they can use the delta configuration versus the wye (400V versus 230V). That pic was just some guy's idea for a charge port that supports 3-phase and would also be compatible with the existing Model S connector.

Yeah, the best approach seems to modify the chargers to accept 400V and include a smaller centre pin. This way the external dimensions of the connector could be identical. Also this would make 400V single phase charging possible, opening up the same possibilities as using the Quick220 in the US (using two hots on opposing phases from different sockets).

 

[dpeilow]

I suppose they could have an external charger for the home that connects to 3 phase service and uses the existing Model S connector for DC (like a 30kW Supercharger-lite), but that would be kind of lame.

I believe that this was Tesla's original thinking too, but this is what we all fought hard against. 3 phase will be particularly useful at the 22 and 43kW public charging stations. The last thing needed is an expensive and still sizeable charging box sitting around on the pavement.

 

[widodh]

I believe that this was Tesla's original thinking too, but this is what we all fought hard against. 3 phase will be particularly useful at the 22 and 43kW public charging stations. The last thing needed is an expensive and still sizeable charging box sitting around on the pavement.

Let's hope that is all behind us.

Not to spoil the fun here, but isn't the whole connector thing something that has been discussed over and over? The US gets a 1-phase high Amp connector, Europe gets a 3-phase medium-Amp (per phase) connector.

This way the goal is: In both Europe and the US we can charge at roughly 20kW at home or abroad if the EVSE supports it.

In the US it would mean 80A on a single-phase and in the rest of the world it would be 32A 3-phase.

Isn't this what has been discussed over and over on this forum? (Even in this topic)

 

[dpeilow]

People have short memories.

 

[jkirkebo]

This way the goal is: In both Europe and the US we can charge at roughly 20kW at home or abroad if the EVSE supports it.

In the US it would mean 80A on a single-phase and in the rest of the world it would be 32A 3-phase.

Isn't this what has been discussed over and over on this forum? (Even in this topic)

Except I want 44kW 3-phase charging
I'll be willing to pay quite a bit extra for going from 22kW to 44kW too.