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What charge port connector?

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Yes, so long as the proprietary plug meets all the other standards referenced in IEC 61851-1 then a cable assembly can be used to connect two different connectors (that's how we connect Type 1 "J1772" to Type 2 "mennekes" Charging Stations).

This only works for Mennekes charging stations up to 22kW. Those just have a socket you can plug your own cable into. The 44kW charging stations does however come with cable & Mennekes plug already connected, since the separate cables stop at 32A.

And I do want 44kW Mennekes three-phase charging on my Model S (even if it tops out at 30kW, which I hope it doesn't). So the solution then is either a Mennekes socket on the car or an adapter.

And a CHAdeMO socket in the frunk is a good idea. I have at least 20 CHAdeMO stations within range of my Leaf, for the Model S next year there should be 50+. Since I'll never have to fast charge more than once a day, 44-50kW is good enough.
 
This only works for Mennekes charging stations up to 22kW. Those just have a socket you can plug your own cable into. The 44kW charging stations does however come with cable & Mennekes plug already connected, since the separate cables stop at 32A.
Sorry, that's incorrect... we have plenty of Charging Stations with 43kW sockets (I also have several 43kW cables).
 
Assuming Nissan join their partners Renault and adopt Type 2 ("mennekes") across the range in Europe then I do think we have the beginnings of a standard that will be deployed in high volume. Given that most government financed infrastructure in Europe will also be Type 2 that only reinforces that connector.

I accept that some of the features of Type 2 are not useful to the consumer in the US (3 phase for example) but wish Tesla had adopted that connector rather than developing a proprietary solution. Type 2 can deliver everything that the Tesla connector can (and more).
I find Type 2 to be highly unlikely to be adopted in the US. From the Combined Charging System announcement, the "international" standard is to have J1772-DC in the North America and IEC 62196-3 (I'm referring to the Mennekes plug with the two extra DC pins) in Europe. The two standards are "harmonized" by having the port opening be the same size. There are absolutely no plans to use Type 2 in the US. It would require switching out the thousands, maybe tens of thousands, of J1772 stations already install to make such a port useful (and almost all of those stations don't have 3 phase in the first place).

Tesla couldn't have adopted IEC 62196-3 anyways since like J1772-DC, it's still in development (it's likely using the same PLC technology and the same signalling; looks like CHAdeMO and China is trying to get their own connector standards accepted into the proposal). IEC 62196-3 is scheduled for functional release in December 2013, so it looks like it may not be ready for use even when Tesla launches in Europe.

The regular Mennekes supports up to 70kW of DC charging (500VDC/140A), but in practical use, it's closer to 55-60kW given the lower charging voltages in batteries today (just like how CHAdeMO supports 62.5kW @ 500VDC/125A, but in practical use the limit is 50kW because the charging voltage of the Leaf and iMIEV is not that high). So like CHAdeMO, it has the same problem: not enough power.
 
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I find Type 2 to be highly unlikely to be adopted in the US.
Agreed but that's not the point... Tesla could have adopted the Type 2 connector rather than developing their proprietary solution... they would have required J1772 adaptors in the US but given that's allowed who cares.

Tesla couldn't have adopted IEC 62196-3 anyways since like J1772-DC, it's still in development (it's using the same PLC technology and the same signalling).
So, they could have deployed proprietary signalling while they wait for (or influence) the standards.

The regular Mennekes supports up to 70kW of DC charging (500VDC/140A), but in practical use, it's closer to 55-60kW given the lower charging voltages in batteries today (just like how CHAdeMO supports 62.5kW @ 500VDC/125A, but in practical use the limit is 50kW because the charging voltage of the Leaf and iMIEV is not that high). So like CHAdeMO, it has the same problem: not enough power.
Sorry I don't agree... we've run some serious current through Type 2 and I suspect it will support 70kW. You also have the option to support 140kW with extra pins.
 
With all the US manufacturers supporting SAE, I think the SAE combo plug is likely to be the dominant player in the US if only for political reasons. Because of that, I expect a lot of government supported, and for profit, DC charging stations in the US will be both CHAdeMO and SAE in the near future with almost all the rest being J1772. For example, the California NRG DC stations will be converted to support SAE. www.cpuc.ca.gov

With the German manufacturers supporting SAE, it seem quite possible that it will be the adopted as the preferred standard in the EU as well.

At least in the US, I think the market for medium range (< 100 mi) cars is very limited, so am doubtful that the charging network, if built, will be optimized for them. The existing CHAdeMO chargers in the US are mostly medium power(30 kw). Even at the max CHAdeMO power (50 kw), these won't be very useful if the Tesla model of high kwh cars becomes more widespread. For plug in hybrids with short ranges, J1772 (6.5 - 16.8 kw) seems fine, but longer range cars really need rates in the 100 kw range for "fast" charging IMHO.

Existing CHAdeMO stations can service medium power charging, but not high power, whereas SAE can do both. Plus, a car with an SAE plug can use J1772 for top-ups as well.

Bottom line is my crystal ball says that if the market for all electric vehicles does develop, the standard will converge on SAE but the process won't be pretty.
 
No, Type 2 supports 70kW DC without extra pins (see diagram above).

70 kW is not enough for the Model S, and Tesla intends to go up to 120 kW, in the future, with the same connector (as it sounds).

With the extra DC pins, the Mennekes+DC is about the same size as the j1772+DC Frankenplug (according to drawings describing the combined format with J1772).

The Tesla connector is much smaller, surely lighter, with fewer flaps, and more convenient.

For Europe and 3-phase, Tesla still has all options open, and I'm simply confident they'll do what is best, as I think they've done the best for the US. :)

If they officially announce a Tesla Supercharger network in Europe, as they appear to intend, they'll probably do it only after already having built a few (and therefore knowing what it takes), as they did here in the US.

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Ok, I had wrong info then. The single 44kW station we have here in Norway does however have a cable on it, and I read somewhere that they would all have that because the 3x63A cable was too heavy to lug around yourself.

How heavy then will be a 120 kW cable? ;)
 
With the German manufacturers supporting SAE, it seem quite possible that it will be the adopted as the preferred standard in the EU as well.

Well given that the SAE (J1772) is a subset of IEC, it's more like the other way around...


70 kW is not enough for the Model S, and Tesla intends to go up to 120 kW, in the future, with the same connector (as it sounds).

With the extra DC pins, the Mennekes+DC is about the same size as the j1772+DC Frankenplug (according to drawings describing the combined format with J1772).

Here's the Mennekes franken-plug

j1772_1.jpg
 
With the German manufacturers supporting SAE, it seem quite possible that it will be the adopted as the preferred standard in the EU as well.
Renault and Nissan will disagree and will undoubtedly have large volumes of cars on the road so I don't think the German influence is clear cut.

Even at the max CHAdeMO power (50 kw), these won't be very useful if the Tesla model of high kwh cars becomes more widespread.
Don't forget that CHAdeMO supports 100kW with proposals to scale to 200kW... Tesla are not the first to implement high power DC.

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I read somewhere that they would all have that because the 3x63A cable was too heavy to lug around yourself.
They are heavy and I don't intend to lug one around :smile:
 
Did all these companies adopt the SAE combo plug for the US only?
U.S., German automakers will demo fast-charging system at EVS26
Not that I'm aware of, do you have any reason to think they might do something like that?
AFAIK, SAE combo is what they'll be putting on their cars that support DC charging. At least in the next few years, I expect the main market for BEV's will be in the EU, so that probably will drive what they use.
 
Not that I'm aware of, do you have any reason to think they might do something like that?
AFAIK, SAE combo is what they'll be putting on their cars that support DC charging. At least in the next few years, I expect the main market for BEV's will be in the EU, so that probably will drive what they use.
In the article, they say
The International Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) has officially tapped the system as the standard for fast-charging.
so I'm trying to figure out if this is the same standard the SAE is working on. I think it is.


This says they play to support it in the US and Europe. Looks like Mercedes didn't join them.
Global Automakers to Demo EV Fast Charging at EVS26
 
Agreed but that's not the point... Tesla could have adopted the Type 2 connector rather than developing their proprietary solution... they would have required J1772 adaptors in the US but given that's allowed who cares.
Except Type 2 doesn't have enough power (even assuming 70kW). So it doesn't accomplish their goal for supercharging, even though it's a better option than CHAdeMO.

So, they could have deployed proprietary signalling while they wait for (or influence) the standards.
They could have done the same with J1772-DC, but they didn't, likely because they (or specifically Elon) think that the connector is clunky. If Tesla had planned to adopt a standard that wasn't ready, they would likely have picked J1772-DC instead as that is going to be the "official" standard in the US (plus there is no need for a J1772 adapter).

Sorry I don't agree... we've run some serious current through Type 2 and I suspect it will support 70kW.
The spec itself says 500VDC and 140A. The limiting factor is the current (this has proven to be the case for CHAdeMO with 500VDC and 125A limit). I doubt any charger will allow more current than the connector is rated for, as that is a huge safety issue (overheating the connector/cable and possibly starting a fire). Like TEG pointed out in another thread, nominal voltage of the Leaf is ~350V, charging voltage is probably about 400V, 400V*125A = 50kW practical limit. The Model S pack has a bit higher nominal voltage (~380V from a diagnostic screen shot I saw), so let's say the charging voltage is 430V. 430V*140A = 60kW for a Model S charging via Type 2 connector.

You also have the option to support 140kW with extra pins.
Again, the proposal with extra pins is not ready yet (much like J1772-DC).
 
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It's called the IEC 62196 combined charging system. In North America it has the type 1 AC pins and in Europe the type 2 AC pins.

IEC 62196 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

SAE is just a proxy for this in the US.
I think that's just how the Europeans choose to label it. I wouldn't call the SAE plug as proxy. As far as I can tell the protocols were developed by SAE and IEEE, which the IEC chose to adopt. Of course the IEC has their own way of labeling things.

Took forever for Europe to actually agree on the German Mennekes Type-2 while the French and Italians held out on Type-3. (Have the finally actually agreed??) And it seems the UK has plenty of Japanese Type-1 (which is what the Europeans call the SAE/Yazaki developed J1772 connector).
 
It's called the IEC 62196 combined charging system. In North America it has the type 1 AC pins and in Europe the type 2 AC pins.

IEC 62196 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

SAE is just a proxy for this in the US.
This should be a sticky somewhere. I think most people find it confusing that the system is called the "Combined Charging System" when in fact it encompasses two different connectors.

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Don't forget that CHAdeMO supports 100kW with proposals to scale to 200kW... Tesla are not the first to implement high power DC.
There's no CHAdeMO charger in existence that exceeds 60kW:
http://www.chademo.com/02_CHAdeMO_Chargers.html

The vehicle inlet is only certified to 120A:
http://charge.yazaki-group.com/english/product/quick_inlet.html
The highest rated connector is certified to 150A (for the Japanese version):
http://charge.yazaki-group.com/english/product/quick_outlet_jp.html
The newest "next gen" version is limited to 125A:
http://charge.yazaki-group.com/english/product/quick_outlet_neo.html

You need at least 200A to push 90kW (assuming a high 450VDC charging voltage, you need even more than 200A if your charging voltage is lower).
 
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