Candleflame
Active Member
afaik supercharger usage was always open to all EVs. The only requirement was that that manufacturer was also commited to building supercharger stations or propritary charging stations compatible with tesla.
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What do you see are the advantages of the Model 3 over future competitors?
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afaik supercharger usage was always open to all EVs. The only requirement was that that manufacturer was also commited to building supercharger stations or propritary charging stations compatible with tesla.
M3 is squarely targeting the BMW 3 series segment as the Model S was taking aim at the luxury sport sedan market and has done incredibly well.
As Tesla will find out, the mid range sports sedan market is a heck a lot more competitive and will be interesting to see how it performs. We're looking to replace our Infiniti G37 with the M3 if the M3 lives up to our expectations.
We're hoping for a CUV/Crossover EV to fill our CRV needs. The Bolt is just a little too small for us, but it's quite an urban utilitarian vehicle that will find a very nice space of the suburban commuter with young family and a little 'zoom zoom'.
As Tesla will find out, the mid range sports sedan market is a heck a lot more competitive and will be interesting to see how it performs. We're looking to replace our Infiniti G37 with the M3 if the M3 lives up to our expectations.
We're hoping for a CUV/Crossover EV to fill our CRV needs. The Bolt is just a little too small for us, but it's quite an urban utilitarian vehicle that will find a very nice space of the suburban commuter with young family and a little 'zoom zoom'.
We don't know much about it yet, but we know Tesla developed a CUV on the Model 3 platform more or less in parallel with the 3. I'm not sure if we'll see it this year or not - that probably depends on how they'd rather play the 3 order backlog - but we should see the prototypes by early next year at the latest, and production late next year probably.
int32_t
Tesla Spotter
Why I'm going to buy a Model 3:
The Spark it replaces didn't have the range or the charging speed, but looked okay. It wasn't available here ever. There's one in Alberta which was imported from the States.
Nobody else has shown up yet. The formidable Japanese automakers are still fooling around with hydrogen, unfortunately. They could do a great job, but they're not. Soooo ... Model 3 it is then! Not a half bad option to be left with, you know.
- Range
- Charging speed
- Honest (amazing) effort, not a compliance car
- Looks absolutely amazing
- Will actually be available to buy, and available in Canada. (Those are two different things, you have to be Canadian to understand. The first can be true without the second being true, but the first must be true in order for the second to be true -- so two hurdles to get over there.)
The Spark it replaces didn't have the range or the charging speed, but looked okay. It wasn't available here ever. There's one in Alberta which was imported from the States.
Nobody else has shown up yet. The formidable Japanese automakers are still fooling around with hydrogen, unfortunately. They could do a great job, but they're not. Soooo ... Model 3 it is then! Not a half bad option to be left with, you know.
Mo City
Active Member
For quite some time, I think offering competitive pricing and churning out high volumes will be huge hurdles for Tesla's EV competitors.
I believe Peter Hochholdinger's statement that Tesla has about a 7-year lead on EV manufacturing vs. competitors, who will have trouble closing the gap because Tesla will relentlessly improve their processes.
I believe Peter Hochholdinger's statement that Tesla has about a 7-year lead on EV manufacturing vs. competitors, who will have trouble closing the gap because Tesla will relentlessly improve their processes.
Among the features I listed (not all encompassing, what came to mind and just those that competitors may not offer), I am really only interested in AWD and perhaps Enhanced AP (if only for the dynamic cruise control) besides perhaps a bigger battery and the winter package. The SCN is great but that is easily replicated by charging consortiums in the next few years -- all that is needed basically are lease lands and electric wiring.
On the other thread I started, I asked what options people wanted to opt for because I don't want to be missing out on options that may be something I regret not getting.
I am sure many people who put down a reservation deposit towards a Model 3 are more knowledgeable about cars than the average person and know the advantages of an EV over an ICE vehicle. They are also likely aware of the electronic or other issues that plague a lot of European cars, which is why many switched to the Model S from a 5 Series or an Audi A6.
My household has been driving Honda's and lately a Toyota and so far we do enjoy the reliability and low upkeep. I just wanted to know if I should jump on the Model 3 (I think my position is somewhere at 73k when the info was exposes) rather than wait for a Honda or Toyota EV since I am betting the latter two will be building solid and reliable EV's. Their hybrid cars, especially Toyota's, is probably the best implementation seeing how Priuses have gone 300k miles and are still chugging along.
To people who have excess cash and like to upgrade their cars every 3 or 4 years, I understand going for Tesla can not go wrong because the company has the vision and it does build nice cars. My very affluent classmate just bought a Model S since money is no object to him.
But for those who want a nice AWD EV with 200 mile range and want it to last as long as a typical reliable ICE vehicle, I'm just wondering if a Honda or Toyota will be worth waiting for. Again, I'm in line for the Model 3. If I weren't, then I would be waiting for competing offers before making a decision. My next vehicle purchase will definitely be an EV. The Bolt was easy to strike out because it doesn't have AWD and we just got a 2016 RAV4 Hybrid in early 2016.
Another really interesting point about Tesla:
Made in USA
They anticipate that the Model 3, to be the most "American car" with 95% of his fabrication done in the US !!
So, it reduce the carbon footprint of your car purchase and create jobs locally
(assuming you live in North America).
Made in USA
They anticipate that the Model 3, to be the most "American car" with 95% of his fabrication done in the US !!
So, it reduce the carbon footprint of your car purchase and create jobs locally
(assuming you live in North America).
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On the face of it that sounds good, but in the time it has taken for Tesla to build out their network, not one competing "network" has stepped up. Not one of them has a proactive, planned network strategy.
You will be waiting a very, very, very long time for either of those two to do that. They're both still fixated on fuel cells and are getting further and further behind. Neither of them is even close to doing any kind of BEV.
^ I think you overestimating the economic moat an electric motor, drive train unit and the super charger network provide.
Why would a consortium step up when there are not a lot of EVs out there aside from Tesla that can go beyond 200 miles and has the SCN? For now, only the Bolt can be used as a practical cross-country driver. They'd have to be building their network every 50-100 miles to serve the EVs with very short driving ranges. I am confident that will change over the next five years. Heck, even Shell gasoline stations will be equipped with charging stations.
Electric motor and drive train units are not rocket science. If GM can do, so can all the incumbents.
Honda and Hitachi are planning a joint venture:
Honda and Hitachi Are Forming an Electric Vehicle Motor Company
I understand that car enthusiasts looking to shift to an EV will lean towards the Model 3 compared to a Toyota or a Honda but the Model S (let's skip the first generation Roadster) reliability track record is still up in the air with only the 2012/early 2013 models' 4-year warranty expiring.
Believe me, I too am rooting for Tesla to succeed but as a consumer, I would rather take a fun enough to drive reliable car than one that is twice as fun to drive on bends or winding roads whose maintenance maybe be double to triple.
Until a Tesla vehicle is proven really reliable past the 8-year warranty/extended warranty, practical consumers like me may gravitate towards blander Toyota or Honda offerings unless there are compelling features in a Tesla that will not be found in the Japanese offering (the point of starting this thread because I did put a reservation and am around 73k position, slightly excited about owning an EV and hoping it will be Tesla). I will definitely get the 4-year extended warranty whether it is a Model 3 or a Japanese offering.
Even Toyota's Lexus division has built great handling dynamics on the IS and Honda did make great cars in the S2000 and Prelude and halo cars such as the NSX. So they could turn their EV divisions sporty again.
Toyota has had a change of mind on electric vehicles but you are right, in might not be until 2019/20. Hyundai/Kia already promised BEVs for 2018.
Now Toyota can make electric cars: it's tamed lithium-ion batteries, it says
Honda did mention the Electric Clarity will be out this year but boy, it is fugly.
Honda Will Re-Enter the EV Race in 2017 with an All-Electric Version of Its Clarity
Why would a consortium step up when there are not a lot of EVs out there aside from Tesla that can go beyond 200 miles and has the SCN? For now, only the Bolt can be used as a practical cross-country driver. They'd have to be building their network every 50-100 miles to serve the EVs with very short driving ranges. I am confident that will change over the next five years. Heck, even Shell gasoline stations will be equipped with charging stations.
Electric motor and drive train units are not rocket science. If GM can do, so can all the incumbents.
Honda and Hitachi are planning a joint venture:
Honda and Hitachi Are Forming an Electric Vehicle Motor Company
I understand that car enthusiasts looking to shift to an EV will lean towards the Model 3 compared to a Toyota or a Honda but the Model S (let's skip the first generation Roadster) reliability track record is still up in the air with only the 2012/early 2013 models' 4-year warranty expiring.
Believe me, I too am rooting for Tesla to succeed but as a consumer, I would rather take a fun enough to drive reliable car than one that is twice as fun to drive on bends or winding roads whose maintenance maybe be double to triple.
Until a Tesla vehicle is proven really reliable past the 8-year warranty/extended warranty, practical consumers like me may gravitate towards blander Toyota or Honda offerings unless there are compelling features in a Tesla that will not be found in the Japanese offering (the point of starting this thread because I did put a reservation and am around 73k position, slightly excited about owning an EV and hoping it will be Tesla). I will definitely get the 4-year extended warranty whether it is a Model 3 or a Japanese offering.
Even Toyota's Lexus division has built great handling dynamics on the IS and Honda did make great cars in the S2000 and Prelude and halo cars such as the NSX. So they could turn their EV divisions sporty again.
Toyota has had a change of mind on electric vehicles but you are right, in might not be until 2019/20. Hyundai/Kia already promised BEVs for 2018.
Now Toyota can make electric cars: it's tamed lithium-ion batteries, it says
Honda did mention the Electric Clarity will be out this year but boy, it is fugly.
Honda Will Re-Enter the EV Race in 2017 with an All-Electric Version of Its Clarity
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DragonWatch
Small FootPrint
I am pushing my M3 off onto an MX. In the process I am selling off a Prius and Tacoma. Over my life time we have owned 2 VW beetles, 3 Volvos (one of the first 960s ~ clocked at 125 mph B4 wife made me slow down), and 6 Toyotas. Bought two of the Volvos while stationed in Germany (9 years total). And probably should have stayed there.
Those were all new purchases. I also try never to go backwards.
Tesla is as a manufacturer by far and without question for me the highest quality. If you have been along for the ride at least since early 2013 you already know the quality story. The aim is also follow thru with reaction to after market issues, like fires which Tesla got ahead of and fixed as quickly as feasibly possible. Tesla does not blame others for their decision choices, they again jump in and fix the problem. Tesla sets and enforces high standards.
Toyota has had every opportunity to pick up the ball and run. The Prius while a nice car has not grown at a competitive pace and quite frankly has out grown their usefulness. Their pickup Tacoma could have challenged the market similar to the Prius, but again Toyota never gave it a thought; now Tesla is on track to challenge the ball field. Tesla Tough?
So, we're you born in a box or outside the box like me?
Those were all new purchases. I also try never to go backwards.
Tesla is as a manufacturer by far and without question for me the highest quality. If you have been along for the ride at least since early 2013 you already know the quality story. The aim is also follow thru with reaction to after market issues, like fires which Tesla got ahead of and fixed as quickly as feasibly possible. Tesla does not blame others for their decision choices, they again jump in and fix the problem. Tesla sets and enforces high standards.
Toyota has had every opportunity to pick up the ball and run. The Prius while a nice car has not grown at a competitive pace and quite frankly has out grown their usefulness. Their pickup Tacoma could have challenged the market similar to the Prius, but again Toyota never gave it a thought; now Tesla is on track to challenge the ball field. Tesla Tough?
So, we're you born in a box or outside the box like me?
I watched this video twice because it was so dense in information. Julian Cox isn't the world's best speaker, but he definitively answers your question better than I could:
Charged EVs | How the Tesla Model 3 could trigger the collapse of the traditional auto industry
Charged EVs | How the Tesla Model 3 could trigger the collapse of the traditional auto industry
Actually this is not always possible with superchargers.
For example, you live in SC, you want to go to visit folks in NC, in Raleigh. You cn totally go there, there are SC on the way. But once you are there, guess what ? No SC. So better be careful of how much you drive around there to make it back to the nearest SC (Lumberton, 100 miles away).
I experience this same scenario here in Seattle, where we have no SC, or Portland, no SC either.
City SCs are not part of the plan.
In that scenario, having a Chademo is the only way to quickly charge at destination.
The Bolt is definitely not a practical cross-county driver. To be a practical cross-country driver, it would need a cross-country Level 3 charging network similar to Tesla's Supercharger network.
I believe Elon has said other manufacturers are allowed to use the superchargers as long as they pay their fair share of the costs of use. He said the details could be worked out in negotiation, but interest from the mainstream automakers has been pretty much non-existent.
Just FYI, the Bolt has a 0-60 of around 7s. I've read GM derated the Bolt when there were problems with oversteer rather than actually fix the problem. In the end GM is doing with the Bolt what has been done with every other EV from a mainstream car maker, they are being made in small numbers as a compromised car that, if it does outperform an ICE, not by much. GM could make the Bolt with better acceleration than a Corvette, but they can't risk it out performing high performance ICEs.
Anyone who thinks that Toyota or Honda will have competitive 200 plus mile range EV's by 2019 or 2020 is very mistaken. Lead times for new technology cars at both companies are 5-7 years.
They would have to have been intending to sell , designing and testing EV's 3-4 years ago to hit those marks.
Tesla is 10-12 years ahead of any mfr . The lead they have with the supercharger network may not be matched by any mfr for decades.
They would have to have been intending to sell , designing and testing EV's 3-4 years ago to hit those marks.
Tesla is 10-12 years ahead of any mfr . The lead they have with the supercharger network may not be matched by any mfr for decades.
In the Tesla Mission Statement, I do not remember them saying they want to dominate the European taxicab market.
The 3 series sold under 70k cars in US in the last 12 months. Some people will always buy BMW 3 series, because they believe it's sign that they have "made it". I do not consider advancing to the level of assistant manager of your local Taco Bell as having 'arrived', but many do. So once you eliminate the fast food workers who need the 320 to have 'relations' with the opposite sex, there is only a potential of 30,000 sales a year of the Model 3 at most.
To transition the world to EVs, it's not the BMW taxi they must defeat, but the Camry and Corolla. Not realistic at this stage, but perhaps snagging Prius buyers would be enough.
shrspeedblade
Rideshare Monkey
For me, the long and short of it is that (I expect, just like the Model S) the Model 3 will be an excellent car that just so happens to be electric as well.
The BMW 3 series has been excellent for decades (loved my E36 M3) except for maintenance costs and economy. Give me a car like that with lower long term cost of ownership and around 100 MPGE and I'm happy as a clam!
The BMW 3 series has been excellent for decades (loved my E36 M3) except for maintenance costs and economy. Give me a car like that with lower long term cost of ownership and around 100 MPGE and I'm happy as a clam!
106k 3/4 series cars, 160k A4/S4/RS4, 77k C class - in the US alone, according to this site. Lot of potential opportunities in similarly sized/priced cars.
You can probably make an argument that it can compete with a Camry on a TCO basis, but it's clearly not that class of car.
The moat is the superchargers and in the case of Honda and Toyota, the unwillingness to admin defeat with fool cells.
Chargepoint, Blink, EVGo etc are all about sticking chargers wherever, that is their strategy. Someone pays for a and L2 and they stick it there, no location planning, nothing.
Chargepoint are only now talking about faster charging capabilities, but none of their existing installations support it.
You asked what advantages there were, many have been pointed out.
But if you want to wait for Honda or Toyota to release an EV, go right ahead - or you could drive one of the real innovative cars of our time because it will not come from either of those companies now.
