Where's the LOVE Elon?

[efusco]

*Posted in another thread at the Teslamotors.com forums.

If I have a frustration with Tesla in all this, it is this...I wish they would throw a bone to those of us who supported them with an unsecured loan--some of us for as long as 3 years now.

For those of us who ordered before the final pricing, or before the IPO, or before the Beta reveal--whatever random date they want to pick--but clearly those who took a risk, gambled some hard earned $$ to support Elon's shared dream, he should have thrown a bone.

My solution for improved reservation holder satisfaction:
Reveal the pricing, then offer the "mandatory $5000 options" for free if you buy a Performance model, and the Tech package and metallic paint for free to the standard models. And certainly those who preordered the Signatures shouldn't have to pay$3500 extra for a bit of badging and a few unique paint and interior embellishments--at least honor their $40k down payment by giving them all that for the same price as a fully packed non-signature model.

It's really not too late to do this...they let us sweat and stomp our feet for a week or two, then come back and offer the above, or $2500 in options credit, or something like that to offset all this angst.

I can dream....

 

[ckessel]

While I'm sympathetic, having been a Sig holder myself, we've been through this in multiple threads now. Did we really need another?

 

[efusco]

While I'm sympathetic, having been a Sig holder myself, we've been through this in multiple threads now. Did we really need another?

Thought I had a slightly different take on things, perhaps I don't. I agree there are many threads on the subject of dissatisfaction. I don't actually sympathize much with most of them, but this is more a generic appeal to some token of appreciation to the early reservation makers that would not be extended to those to reserve here on out.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

I've had (only?) $5k locked up for just shy of 2 years now. No, I don't think we should expect any more from Tesla - the Beta factory event and some of the freebie shwag in the mail were good enough in my opinion. Being at the front of the queue and having our cars delivered by late 2012 or so is really what I expected from locking that money in with Tesla. It's a lot of money (the sig $40k more so) for most of us and many of us got a rude wake up call from the options pricing announcement but, I think Tesla has been very fair all along.

 

[Adm]

I don't think Tesla is in any position to throw anybody a bone. Model S is going to be make or break for Tesla. It is the reason why the higher priced cars will be produced first and leasing by Tesla is impossible unless done by a bank or leasing company.
I can understand the disappointment by many reservation holders who have had too much time to think about the car, how it will look and how much it will cost. Let's face it: I've never waited more than 8 weeks for a new car and that was always for a car that had been in production for years with a known price for the car and the options. To be confronted with the actual prices is bound to disappoint people. For me as an European wanting a 160 mi battery, charging is an issue also.
That said, I´ve gone back on the reasons why I gave Tesla a interest free, unsecured loan in the first place. Of course, Model S has been a beautiful car from the prototype to the Beta´s and despite going 0-60 in "only" 6.5s it will still be the fastest car I've ever owned, but above and beyond it's an electric car by the company that ignited the latest attempt to make electric cars work. It is Tesla that made the OEM's sweat and come up with EV's and hybrids across the board (even if only for green washing purposes). Fuel consumption has come down on cars where fuel economy never was a serious issue.
My tiniest of contributions is to stick with Tesla and provide them (thru Widodh's petition for 3 fase charging) with costumer needs and wishes and hope they learn from it so Model S, and all models that will follow, will be a success. Convincing 8k pioneers is one thing, selling 20k cars a year will be another. Waiting for another year is going to be a greater pain.

 

[KenEE]

Well it might not be free, but if you apply your $5k deposit toward the $5k options then you're not out of pocket.

The $5k I put down is so long gone it will seem like "free money".


Ken

 

[NielsChr]

Totally agree with Adm, couldn’t be said more precisely.

If Tesla should give anything away, it would be on behalf of raising other prices - e.g. options, base model, yearly maintenance or like....this is a startup company, and I don't expect they will make good profit for a long time.
just as a side note - I do not agree that the signature is overpriced, people do mention 3500$, it has perforated leather interior - I do not expect this to come free either for Tesla (maybe added value 500$) - witch bring down the theoretic overprice to 3000$ - for those 3000 you got special branding (You may say you own a "Signature") , you will get the car before all others, and in addition your car is an early version.
Please note that only people witch are not concerned about an extra 3000$ should buy the Signature model. This model may have minor flaws, witch should be handle in the first couple of months….if you are concerned about 3000$ you should consider not to getting a Signature edition, this is for the rich (Im not included). Since the first versions may require few changes in the first months, witch I expect will give Tesla some added cost in respect of transportation to/from your car...
All in all I do not think Tesla is making more benefit from a Signature over an Base model S.
- so if you’re not in that league just relax and wait for the Base model , we were never promised anything else than the Signature would be fully loaded and come first in line.

 

[VolkerP]

@OP

you want LOVE for putting a deposit into a startup company? Then you ask for a few grand? Strange concept. But I heard in Las Vegas it is legal. :biggrin:

In all earnest: Reservation holders got a few bones: the 1/16 RC roadster model, and other gifts. Invitation to the Fremont factory event. Newsletters to participate in an awesome development. But they can't throw cash out of the window.
If you want a reward for putting money in a fledging, unproven company then put some cash into it. Supply venture capital or buy stock. It's not too late to do that!

 

[dhrivnak]

I too agree with ADM. Tesla has MANY challenges trying to take on established auto companies and big oil. I have built an EV and two plug in Hybrids and there is no-way one could make a car close to the model S for the price Tesla has committed to. I personally think the pricing is agressive for the current state of EV's.

Here is another way to look at it, comparing the Roadster to the Model S. For $20,000 less one gets a car that is almost as fast but yet has 300 miles of range versus 235, seats 7 versus 2, has 30+ cubic ft of storage versus 6.5, has 8 year unlimited battery warranty versus 4 year. Those are very solid and impressive improvements in my humble opinion.

Now does anyone want to buy my Roadster so I can get in line for a model S?

 

[Trnsl8r]

Here is another way to look at it, comparing the Roadster to the Model S. For $20,000 less one gets a car that is almost as fast but yet has 300 miles of range versus 235, seats 7 versus 2, has 30+ cubic ft of storage versus 6.5, has 8 year unlimited battery warranty versus 4 year. Those are very solid and impressive improvements in my humble opinion.

Now does anyone want to buy my Roadster so I can get in line for a model S?

Well when you put it like that...

 

[GSP]

I also agree with ADM and dhrivnak, who have very eloqulanty and accurately described the situation, in my opinion.

GSP

 

[ckessel]

Yep, all the exact same arguments we had before. I completely disagree with NeilsChr and ADM and think they are completely failing to understand the view point of those that will have had $40k locked up in an very high risk company for a year or two. I don't see any of us changing our minds on this though.

Folks have staked out one position or another and I don't think anyone is going to change sides.

Edit: "In all earnest: Reservation holders got a few bones: the 1/16 RC roadster model, and other gifts."

No, certainly a lot of us didn't. I was P2840 then S354 and I never got anything.

 

[Eberhard]

Yep, all the exact same arguments we had before. I completely disagree with ADM and think he's completely failing to understand the view point of those that will have had $40k locked up in an very high risk company for a year or two. I don't see either of us changing our mind on this.

Folks have staked out one position or another and I don't think anyone is going to change sides.

Thats what i did as well, when i put down the reservation fee for the signature edition. I have taken the risk. I traveled to Milan Tesla store opening to talk to Elon Musk and JB Straubel about what we need in Europe. The same i did when i flew over to the Model S presentation on 1st October, just for 4 days to talk to Blankenship and JB Straubel again just to learn, taht they don't really care for potential and real customer from Europe. This is disappointing to. What shall i do with the second charger in the signature edition? Here, we don't have 80A single phase but 3x32A but no chance to connect at least 2 of those phases?

Its really frustrating -

 

[efusco]

Oddly, my position is somewhere in between. I don't think Tesla technically "owes" us anything. At the same time it seems like a great gesture of good will and appreciation to those of us who will, undoubtedly, become the foremost advocates for Tesla AND EVs in the next few years. Look, Toyota gave 3 years of service for free to the 1st generation prius buyers--in part for themselves to be sure they could keep close tabs on the vehicles, but also to give a bit of appreciation and a bit of breathing room for those early adopters.

We all took a bit of a risk putting down money on a reservation. Our risk doesn't end there by any means. If Tesla folds in 2 years we still have cars that will need repair and maintenence and we'll have to find 3rd parties to do that and/or do it ourselves. Toys in the mail are nice. The thing at the factory was cool for those of you who could attend, but it would have cost me a couple thousand dollars to get there. I still have insurance, transportation charges, perhaps an extended warranty to pay for, perhaps the battery replacement cost to consider purchasing, etc.

I don't think, in any way at all, that Tesla is being unfair to us...I just don't share that view at all. That said, some of these costs are darn high and are pretty unexpected--anything beyond with pain with black on black interior, or black with black on black is going to be at least $2250 more, that's a lot of money for some of hard working family men with kids folks. I'm just saying that Tesla would make us even more satisfied with them as a company and better advocates for them going forward by giving us some good will gestures as I suggested in the original post of this thread...or something along those lines.

Do they "owe it to us"--hell no. Would it be the magnanimous thing to do--absolutely. Would it be a good business decision--I believe so. I was an early Gen II Prius buyer and have, without a bit of doubt in my mind, been directly responsible for a score or more sales of Prii over the years, and likely many hundreds more indirectly that is our destiny as well with Tesla.

 

[ckessel]

I supposed that's mostly my view, that it would have been good to throw pre-production holders a thank you, but it wasn't strictly expected. It's really just the treatment with Sigs that upsets me. In addition to the Sig surcharge, the way they're doing options isn't good either:

Extra charger I won't ever use? Don't want that, wasted money.
No credit for downgrading to 19" tires.
No credit for picking black or white as the preferred color.

If Sigs were no more expensive, I would have said "eh, oh well", but I think the up-charge and the way certain options are handled is actually insulting and has fairly significantly damaged the way I view Tesla. Not enough to cancel, but I did down grade and I'm no longer talking up the company. I don't have nearly as much belief that Tesla will do right by customers in the future since their first step out the door with the Model S is to squeeze Sig holders in a very blatant manner.

 

[T@oo]

Whats the point of a plain black Sig with 19"?? The Sig where supposed to be "fully loaded" all the time AFAIR. I think you're beeing unreasonable here.

 

[AnOutsider]

If Sigs were no more expensive, I would have said "eh, oh well", but I think the up-charge and the way certain options are handled is actually insulting and has fairly significantly damaged the way I view Tesla. Not enough to cancel, but I did down grade and I'm no longer talking up the company. I don't have nearly as much belief that Tesla will do right by customers in the future since their first step out the door with the Model S is to squeeze Sig holders in a very blatant manner.

Whoa, I think that's overreacting a bit there. I don't feel Tesla has done any intentional harm here to feel that harshly. Your opinion may vary of course, but it seems a bit much.

As for the sig, as T@oo said, why have a sig if you're going for base settings anyway? In your case you're actually better off in the P queue. Only thing lost is some time.

*edited to clarify*

 

[Arnold Panz]

Do they "owe it to us"--hell no. Would it be the magnanimous thing to do--absolutely. Would it be a good business decision--I believe so. I was an early Gen II Prius buyer and have, without a bit of doubt in my mind, been directly responsible for a score or more sales of Prii over the years, and likely many hundreds more indirectly that is our destiny as well with Tesla.

I'm about in the middle as well. My bigger concern is that, as a fan and supporter of Tesla who desperately wants the company to succeed, they shot themselves in the foot a bit with the Sig pricing (and possibly the 160 no fast-charger, but that's another story). I had introduced a friend to Tesla, he almost immediately put down a reservation for Sig. Yesterday, he sent me an e-mail to "talk him down off the ledge" because he was at the Porsche dealership ready to buy a Cayenne that day. He still loves the Model S, but feels really burned by the extra cost without any real important (to him) additions. This is exactly what I was afraid would happen when I saw the pricing -- only real "true believers" in Tesla/EVs would be willing to pay the Sig premium.

He also made the point that, like a lot of people who can afford to put down the $40k, he lives around and knows a lot of people who could afford this car, and would probably love it once they saw it. Sig owners would be like walking advertisements. Many of us are already, but having the car in a few months would obviously increase the promotion of the car, and at just the right market Tesla wants (professionals, entrepenuers, the idle rich etc.). Even if he ends up getting the car now (Sig or not), why put him in a mindset where he's sort of pissed at Tesla and resentful of having to pay extra for the Sig? I just think that the extra few million they're getting isn't worth the additional marketing/publicity/goodwill that they would have gotten in the long run by REALLY taking care of the Sig reservation holders. If they can still step up to the plate (with free service or something), then I hope they correct their error.

 

[loganss]

Maybe I'm missing something but when people gave their reservation money, did they sign some sort of agreement saying they are going to get all the accessories/features they are currently upset about? People putting in reservations before the car was finalized, or nearly finalized, were taking a huge risk in their investment with no guarantee that they'd get what they wanted. Seems the same as any other investment. Sometimes you get what you wanted and sometimes you don't. At least the Model S didn't make changes like the Volt concept to what it is now.

I like Tesla and all but I needed to let my money earn interest and save up more while the Model S was being finalized. The risk was too high for me. Due to my actions, I won't be able to get the car until 2013. That's ok with me.

If you're getting the Sig and you get extra features you don't want, you can sell some of them.

Edit: Also since the car hasn't come out yet, it's still possible that Tesla might do something special for their Sig reservation holder that would make the premium more than worth it.

 

[efusco]

Maybe I'm missing something but when people gave their reservation money, did they sign some sort of agreement saying they are going to get all the accessories/features they are currently upset about? People putting in reservations before the car was finalized, or nearly finalized, were taking a huge risk in their investment with no guarantee that they'd get what they wanted. Seems the same as any other investment. Sometimes you get what you wanted and sometimes you don't. At least the Model S didn't make changes like the Volt concept to what it is now.

That's not quite the point of my thread. Even so, to some degree the answer to your first sentence is "yes". Nowhere, prior to last week's list of options/prices, did anyone give a hint that the 40kW pack would not be capable of the previously promised 5.6 sec 0-60 time or that would be less capable of rapid charging. Those have been long time marketing tools used to solicit reservations. Certainly folks can drop their reservations and be out just the interest they would otherwise have made on the money, but that's not really the point. The point is that we took our gamble with out money and some of us expect a bit MORE than what was promised from Tesla, not less--and not to be taken advantage of as I think is happening to the Signature reservers...$40k over 3 years would produce significant interest if invested well--instead they have to pay $3500 more for essentially the same features as the non-sigs. I think Tesla could have used this situation to score HUGE points with reservations holders to both ultimate marketing and customer satisfaction advantage, instead they've got a bit of an image issue they now have to address somehow.