Where's the LOVE Elon?

[ckessel]

Whoa, I think that's overreacting a bit there. As T@oo said, why have a sig if you're going for base settings? I don't feel Tesla has done any intentional harm here

I don't want the base settings, I never said I did. It's fine if you'd like to discuss merits of Tesla's Sig package, but don't throw up straw man statements I never made.

- What's wrong with wanting black? Why should I be paying a premium because I like black paint? T@oo even goes a step farther to denigrate it as "plain" black. WTF? What kind of bizarro world is this where Red is the only true color and all else are inferior?
- What's wrong with liking the 19" wheels? What if I want 19" aero wheels? Why is it unreasonable to want the aero wheels and NOT to be charged a premium for them?

If Tesla is going to allow a downgrade (like paint and wheels, which expressly provides that option) then it's pure greed by Tesla to keep the difference. Tesla is saying "Oh, you can downgrade to black, but we're keeping your cash." I really take offense to that. I'll be really, really interested if someone can legitimately argue why Tesla should keep the cash on those.

I'm not bothered by items that are less subjective, such as the tech package or sound package that you'll use and can appreciate even if you wouldn't normally pay for them. I may actively dislike red paint or the 21" wheels as those are fairly subjective items, but it'd be hard to say anyone would actively dislike better sound, better headlights, etc.

Their Sig optional vs. mandatory is also screwy. A mandatory 2nd charger that lots of folks like myself will never use, but it costs $1500 for the pano roof. The pano roof seems much more in the class of options like the tech package and sound system, things everyone can use, far more than the 2nd charger.

Maybe I'm missing something but when people gave their reservation money, did they sign some sort of agreement saying they are going to get all the accessories/features they are currently upset about? ... If you're getting the Sig and you get extra features you don't want, you can sell some of them.

No, the agreement says nothing about how it's optioned. And, other than the 21" rims, how would you sell any of the mandatory options?

There are 1000 Sigs (well, more counting outside the US). That's a very tiny amount of the full long term production run of the car. Taking any liberties with the first 1000 customers in the slightest seems like a horrible PR move with a cost in ill-will and bad word of mouth that should be factored against the extra $ to be made on surcharging the Sigs.

 

[efusco]

Was just wondering how much interest Tesla has enjoyed on my money over the past 3 years. If I was getting 10% on my $5000 investment it would have been worth $1655 more now. For those who put down $40,000 right way for a Signature model, that same 10% would have yeilded them $13,240 in interest earnings. This wasn't JUST a deposit, it was a loan. Hence why the early reservers might be worthy of some hearty thanks from Tesla. FWIW, if those same signature reservers have to wait another year for their car b/c they've downgraded to a non-sig the intrest lost will increase to $18,564. And since it will be almost another year before us lowly non-Sig folks get ours even on $5000 that's $2320 in interest lost over the 4 years.

Is choice of paint and interior color for "free" REALLY too much to ask in light of those numbers?

 

[ckessel]

If I was getting 10% on my $5000 investment it would have been worth $1655 more now.

If you've been getting 10% on your investments, you sir are a wizard .

 

[efusco]

:smile:

If you've been getting 10% on your investments, you sir are a wizard .

 

[AnOutsider]

That settles it. He's clearly a wizard.

I think money would have been well-spent in Tesla stock to be honest, but at the same time, I'm OK with my money going to keep them afloat. I do agree that us early people should get SOMETHING, but with that said, I DID end up getting the RC Roadster and the swag box (as well as a trip to the Factory), so it's alright in the end....

(don't get me wrong, I'd love it if we got some more bonuses being sig people -- even if that meant free options or throwing in the pano roof or something)

 

[Mycroft]

They can't throw in the pano roof because too many people don't want it for various reasons.

I think the best we could hope for would be some "free" years of maintenance or a free warranty extension. I wouldn't turn up my nose to either.

 

[Adm]

Free maintenance for Sig owners might work as it pushes the costs into the future (at least a year away) and it won't affect cash flow in times where they really need it. That said, free maintenance will be hard if they go belly up.
Also, the fact that some reservation holders assume that venture capital always pays (big) is a misconception. Many don't make it beyond a year, some struggle for years to stay afloat and just a hand full explode and result a big pay day for venture capitalists. I assume the real VC's at Tesla already already cashed out by now as they should have been able to negotiate good conditions, for us mere mortals, as $40k and $5k is small change for these guys, will have to wait and see. Sig owners may get something, I expect nothing for plebs like myself. Well maybe if they have 20k reservations (S and X) by mid next year.

 

[richkae]

I am also disappointed by the Signature. I am considering downgrading to a regular production 85 kW car with less options than the signature.
I was prepared to pay full price for options I did not really want and let Tesla have that profit, but I'm disappointed about overpaying for them.
I'm also disappointed with the limited color choices.

So as I see it, the Signature Model has 2 benefits: 1) skip to the front of the line, 2) you get red.
For that you get to: 1) let Tesla hold $35000 for about an extra year or so, 2) pay $3500 extra

IMO Signature Model S should have that several of these features at the current price point:

1) Upgrade to Sport for only $6500
2) 5 years of data plan included
3) 5 years maintenance included
4) Access to all the exterior colors

 

[AnOutsider]

They can't throw in the pano roof because too many people don't want it for various reasons.

Right, but many people don't want the 21" wheels too, but they are standard. You should be able to downgrade if you wish, but why not just throw it in as standard? Same with the jump seats and the charger IMO. In the grand scheme of things, their actual cost on those items are likely very low compared to the MSRP, and it would go a long way to keeping their sig people happy I think. Just throwing it out there.

I think the best we could hope for would be some "free" years of maintenance or a free warranty extension. I wouldn't turn up my nose to either.

I agree, some sort of premium care (free ranger visits up to x miles etc) would also go a long way.

 

[Arnold Panz]

I am also disappointed by the Signature. I am considering downgrading to a regular production 85 kW car with less options than the signature.
I was prepared to pay full price for options I did not really want and let Tesla have that profit, but I'm disappointed about overpaying for them.
I'm also disappointed with the limited color choices.

So as I see it, the Signature Model has 2 benefits: 1) skip to the front of the line, 2) you get red.
For that you get to: 1) let Tesla hold $35000 for about an extra year or so, 2) pay $3500 extra

IMO Signature Model S should have that several of these features at the current price point:

1) Upgrade to Sport for only $6500
2) 5 years of data plan included
3) 5 years maintenance included
4) Access to all the exterior colors

richkae, I agree with all of your points, except for the colors. The reason we (Sigs) don't have access to all colors is that it slows down production to change colors each time a car comes down the line, so to start with only 4 color choices makes the production move a bit faster. This is extremely important at the onset because I'm sure they're expecting a million (hopefully minor) issues to crop up as they get into production, and having to deal with multiple different colors is one less headache they need to deal with. I'm totally OK with that because it's very logical, and something that they have been discussing for months to Sig owners, and was highlighted at the owners event in October.

 

[Weustis]

I'm new to the forum and a relatively new reservation holder (March 2011) and apologize if this post is a non-sequitur, but did they stop sending out the Roadster model cars and other schwag? I did get an invite to the factory event, but that's about all I've seen other than the occasional email. Just curious.

As far as the pricing, I am a bit disappointed, but understand that they need to turn a profit at some point. I agree with Volker's post that they could have done a better job of pitching what is included. I was hoping i wouldn't have to drop $100K for a Signature. But, that's the risk you take in this situation.

 

[Todd Burch]

I'm new to the forum and a relatively new reservation holder (March 2011) and apologize if this post is a non-sequitur, but did they stop sending out the Roadster model cars and other schwag? I did get an invite to the factory event, but that's about all I've seen other than the occasional email. Just curious.

Schwag went out a good while ago....most of it a year ago...so if you're a new reservation holder you won't get it.

 

[ckessel]

Schwag went out a good while ago....most of it a year ago...so if you're a new reservation holder you won't get it.

I think they were a 2011 new year's present as I remember a bunch of folks getting swag at the start of 2011. I reserved the first week or so of 2011 and just missed it. Given I was P2860, it's fair to say the majority of reservation holders haven't gotten any swag. It was a nice thing for Tesla to do and I don't feel jilted on that account. I don't feel upset on the Tesla pricing either in general, just the way Sigs are handled.

 

[Robert.Boston]

If you've been getting 10% on your investments, you sir are a wizard .

Not that it's a relevant metric, but the Dow Jones Index is up 22.2% since I put in my deposit, or 11.1% on an annualized basis. So, earning 10% would have meant that I underperformed the market. :wink:

 

[Norbert]

Maybe Signature holders will get to test drive sooner than others, and/or a special (earlier) launch event...

 

[brianman]

In all earnest: Reservation holders got a few bones: the 1/16 RC roadster model, and other gifts. Invitation to the Fremont factory event.

Not all of us.

 

[onlinespending]

Being at the front of the queue

If our down-payments only guaranteed our spot in line, as they should, then I would actually be OK with this. The reward for taking the risk and putting down money in the company was simply the guarantee that you would get your Model S before anyone else putting down money after you. That seems only fair; first come, first serve. Unfortunately Tesla really screwed the pooch by not even making good on the reservation order by fragmenting things by battery pack size. When I put my money down nearly 2 years ago this was certainly not the case. They've changed the rules in the middle of the game, and now someone can walk in today and quite possibly get a car long before me despite being over 4000 spots behind me in line. I understand this may make sense financially (selling the more expensive, higher margin models first), but then again it would also make sense financially for Apple to allow those wishing to buy the 64GB version of their iPhone to cut in line on launch day. Clearly this is not the case and would reflect poorly on Apple. Yet how is it that Tesla gets to do this, yet nobody seems bothered by it? The logical explanation is that these unfair rule changes actually benefit more people than it does hurt others. If you intend to purchase a 85 kWh Model S, whether you put your reservation in 2 years ago or today, you stand to gain from being given priority.

By changing the rules mid-game to benefit its bottom line, it's clear this company is struggling financially (something we already know) and needs cash ASAP. But in the process, are they not tarnishing their integrity? Those that do not see such actions for what they are; ones that are best for the company's bottom line and not necessarily in the best interest of its customers are either very naive or have too strong an emotional attachment to a car they haven't even driven in yet to think rationally.

 

[Jkam]

Maybe Signature holders will get to test drive sooner than others, and/or a special (earlier) launch event...

Not to jump all over you, but I think Sig holders expect to get the test drive first and they should since they should get their cars first. So I don't understand how getting a test drive sooner than others is really a perk? I think it is more of an expectation. And to be honest if Tesla handles it any other way, the criticism from Sig holders will be even louder.

A launch event doesn't sound too appealing either. Theoretically there could be 1,000 (+ guests) in attendance. As a Sig holder, I don't want to stand in line for a two minute test drive. I would prefer to have a more intimate and longer test drive. To be honest, everyone, Sig or general production holders, deserve more than just a token test drive. Everyone is willing to spend at least $50k on a car and should have the opportunity to test drive the car for a decent amount of time.

 

[brianman]

If Tesla is going to allow a downgrade (like paint and wheels, which expressly provides that option) then it's pure greed by Tesla to keep the difference. Tesla is saying "Oh, you can downgrade to black, but we're keeping your cash." I really take offense to that. I'll be really, really interested if someone can legitimately argue why Tesla should keep the cash on those.

I'll bite. Straying from the "default Sig" package combination might have some impact on the production efficiency -- having to adjust the settings on the machinery, etc.

That said, they could have gone a different route. They could have said that "unadjusted" Signatures get produced before any "adjusted" ones. They likely avoided considering that approach because of the heat they're already getting about the 300 / 230 / 160 bucketing.

 

[Norbert]

Everyone is willing to spend at least $50k on a car and should have the opportunity to test drive the car for a decent amount of time.

Of course, I see the test drive and the launch event as two different things.