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Who has solar power at their home? Please chime in....
- Thread starter ozziegn
- Start date
Convert your neighbors.
Tell him to put in a hot tub or electric heat pump or something!
We put in 141% of our estimated usage and are still only covering about 80% of our needs since our usage changed. We are already planning on adding another 4 kW or so.
Hobari
Member
You are absolutely right, but I'm not sure that's the end of the story. We are overbuilt to the maximum allowed by the utility, which is 125% of prior year's usage. My legislatively mandated options are: (a) bank wattage credits or (b) get paid pennies on the dollars ( compared to what ischarged by our utility). I chose banking electrical credits. I don't think I'm wasting these credits because I foresee an even greater reliance on electricity in the future in our household. For starters, a second electric car. The point is that it might actually make sense to overbuild with a longer time horizon.
Yeah, we replaced our 20 year old breaking down air conditioner with a combo heat pump unit about 8 months after we got our solar system, so that was great, and it did remind me, so I suggested it, but their air conditioner was not very old, so it's hard to justify that kind of multi-thousand dollar expense for the long term just to use up energy credits. Plus, they are in their mid 70's, so it gets impractical to think of 20-30 year payback terms.
There are two things to consider now with net metering. First, solar panels had 30% less efficiency when I put my system in 4 years ago. Now you can get about 22% and mine is less than 17%. For sure get the higher efficiency panels because it will leave more room on your roof for expanding the system. (Also have the contractor wire you up now for 25% expansion.
Net metering (at least with the structure now in effect in Calif) . ) allows you to use more electricity than you generate, yet still have zero net end of year payment. That requires you to shift your variable usage to non peak times for such things as charging your electric cars, heating up your hot tub, doing laundry and dishwashing. However, net metering will go away and you will want to generate more than you use for most of your days and have a battery when the cost comes down as predicted. In climates colder than Florida, I would plan on getting enough efficient solar to cove 2 electric cars and heat pumps for home and water heating. The community of Berkeley ( Berserkley) Ca. will no longer be allowing natural gas hookups on new construction. Electric only. If you have net metering at retail the utility can act as your battery (which Generally are not now a good investment because of the high expense and possible limited life,) if you can, cover your expected needs now at about 100% for average full year usage but wire up for expansion for the future when panel efficiency will be higher, panel costs lower, and net metering will go away.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
Well... depends on how much you need the space. There's a REALLY steep premium on high efficiency panels. You can get a ~300w panel for <$0.50/w. Most 360w panels run >$1/w.
I have a 10 Kw peak power system that was installed 15 years ago in the middle of the desert halfway between Los Angeles and Las Vegas. The installation paid for itself in four years with California rebates and net-metering plan. I have NOT paid an electric bill since I generate more power than I use until this year. In July I bought a Tesla 3 to see if I can use some of the extra solar generated power instead of SCE paying me a lowly 4.5 cents per kWh. If I did not have solar I would be paying at least $5000 a year for my all electric home in Barstow, BTW, before installing the solar panels in 1994, I had the roof replaced with all new material..
Zeronet
Member
I would advise ANYONE who can get net metering from their power company to install their own self-funded solar system ASAP if they have the cash. If you drag your feet, your power company will take away your chance as they have in much of Florida, Hawaii, and Arizona. There are many independent electricians who are experienced in the process (at least in Arizona).
Why is net metering crucial?
With net metering you bank kilowatt hours (kWh) with the power company during sunny days. Then, when it is night, or a cloudy day, you withdraw your banked kWh - net cost to you: $0. Without net metering, you would pay a kWh cost of somewhere between 10 to 30 cents an hour (depending on local rates) for your power when the sun is not shining.
My power company, APS, several years ago helped finance the election of new Corporation Commission members (their regulators) who helped them eliminate net metering. Now you are required not only to pay for the panels and inverter, but also expensive storage batteries for when the sun is not up. These new rules have devastated the home solar industry in Arizona, where solar would be more advantageous than any other state. The power company is in the business running big coal, nuclear, and gas power plants. They don't want to compete with you.
Also, when I heard about all the companies wanting to pay me to lease out my roof for their panels, it occurred to me that I also had money to invest. So, if putting solar panels on my roof was a good enough investment for them, it could be a better investment for me.
I only have a pitiful 5.5 kW system (compared to my neighbors). But since my house has foot-thick walls, and super-efficient HVAC, these panels easily cover all the appliances, heating, cooling, and my Tesla. The first half of my panels cost $15,000, but when I doubled the system in 2017, the cost for the second half had dropped to $10,000. It is likely cheaper by now.
During the summer months I have been banking about 200 kWh/month excess production. As a result, my electric bills have been only $19/month in miscellaneous fees since March. Unfortunately, on December 31st, the electric company will cash out all of my saved kWh at 3.5 cents each. Then, the very next hour, they will start charging 14 cents each. As a result, I actually have a bill just under $100 for February. January is mostly covered using the cash credits I receive.
You can calculate for yourself how much power your Tesla uses and calculate your yearly total. My model 3 uses about 250 watts per mile (available on your odometer). So, at 10,000 miles/year, my Tesla uses 2500 kWh/year. This is about half of my surplus kWh after heating, cooling, and appliances are powered.
In the near future, as batteries get cheaper, it should be possible to build self-contained car charging stations with 20 kWh or so battery storage that could could charge while you are at work, then recharge you car at night. It might only require 4 or so solar panels and could be independent from the electrical grid.
That’s not the way my system works. All the electricity that I produce goes into the grid and all I use comes from the grid. At the end of the year SDG&E sends a “true up” statement. I pay the bill once a year.
I believe that in the solar installation area you have to question everything and explore. I trusted my installer implicitly (and still do) but recognize that they all have their bias towards certain panels. My son installed his 22 panel system 22% efficiency) one year after I installed my 17% system. You are right, he had 360s. Yet, he said he got a dealer and factory bargain on the panels and so his cost per watt for the full system installed, all costs was $3.00
/watt while mine was $3.50per watt. We both went from gasoline to electric cars (used Volts) and with fuel cost savings and total electric bill savings we each paid off our panel systems in less than 48 months. I have, he is on track. So my answer is to do more shopping. Figure in the added total cost as i affects your payback time. We both got the 30% rebate and my total cost for a 29 panel system. I figured my tax free return on investment was about 23%. As long as you are getting tax free returns like that, who cares about a little more up front cost. Also, remember that most people who figure in electric cars and heat pumps (like they should be, at least for the future) will be running into roof space issues.
Such products already exist (or are coming soon) but they aren't that cheap currently. Smartflower has an interesting product with battery storage (Solar Flower Designs with SmartFlower — The Future is Here!) that doesn't need to be tied to your household electrical panel. I've also seen other companies with a few solar panels mounted on a trailer that is wired with a J1772 EVSE.
We live in central North Carolina, also a net metering state. We had a 13.95 kwp PV system installed on our home in October 2018 and two Powerwalls installed in March 2019 (that's how long it took them to come in after the order - they were ordered at the same time we signed the contract for the PV system). I would recommend that your roof have an expected life of either the life of the solar panels or the length of time you expect to live in the home (do you really care if you sell the house to someone else who has to replace the roof and deal with uninstalling/reinstalling the solar system?). In our case, we had our roof replaced in 2017, so it's on schedule to last as long as the panels.
We got the Powerwalls for two reasons: 1) to have power during an outage (many people don't realize this, but if your are connected to the grid and power goes out, your entire system shuts down unless you have battery storage; otherwise, solar would be feeding electricity to the grid and electrocuting lineworkers) and 2) to be as self-sufficient as possible. Depending on the time of year, the Powerwalls really help to power the house through the night (or most of the night). We have our Powerwalls set to discharge to only 45% so that we have reserve in case there is a grid outage - during bad weather, we set them to stay at 100% reserve in case of outages. So far, outages have been minimal (only a few since March and less than 15 minutes each).
Our experience has been that during summer months, we are cranking out electricity to the grid at a very high rate during mid-day hours that have no cloud cover. It's amazing by how much production is limited by having just some cloud cover). For the past 4 months, we have had the minimum bill of $15.05/mo (includes taxes). We can't get down to zero because Duke Energy has a service charge of $14/mo. just for a house to be hooked up to the grid (makes sense, since they do have infrastructure costs...). Here at the end of summer, we have a credit of kilowatt hours that will offset winter months when we do not generate enough solar energy to power all of our needs. All told, I expect that our yearly electric bill will be minimal (it may not be just the minimum during the winter months as we may draw from the grid, especially when there's snow on the roof).
I drive an EV ('18 Leaf) and have a Level 2 EVSE at home but rarely use it because I can charge at work for free. I have charged a couple of times at home in the evening and the Powerwalls supplied the electricity to fully charge (I don't recall how much "juice" I needed), but they deplete rather quickly when you're charging a car. So, yes, you can charge an EV using the Powerwall. Whether you can do it during an outage depends on solar production and how much electricity your house needs. I do not think you can keep a house going and charge an EV with just one Powerwall. Like I said, we have two Powerwalls, and three would be even better, but I didn't want to spend that much money.
Hope that helps!
We got the Powerwalls for two reasons: 1) to have power during an outage (many people don't realize this, but if your are connected to the grid and power goes out, your entire system shuts down unless you have battery storage; otherwise, solar would be feeding electricity to the grid and electrocuting lineworkers) and 2) to be as self-sufficient as possible. Depending on the time of year, the Powerwalls really help to power the house through the night (or most of the night). We have our Powerwalls set to discharge to only 45% so that we have reserve in case there is a grid outage - during bad weather, we set them to stay at 100% reserve in case of outages. So far, outages have been minimal (only a few since March and less than 15 minutes each).
Our experience has been that during summer months, we are cranking out electricity to the grid at a very high rate during mid-day hours that have no cloud cover. It's amazing by how much production is limited by having just some cloud cover). For the past 4 months, we have had the minimum bill of $15.05/mo (includes taxes). We can't get down to zero because Duke Energy has a service charge of $14/mo. just for a house to be hooked up to the grid (makes sense, since they do have infrastructure costs...). Here at the end of summer, we have a credit of kilowatt hours that will offset winter months when we do not generate enough solar energy to power all of our needs. All told, I expect that our yearly electric bill will be minimal (it may not be just the minimum during the winter months as we may draw from the grid, especially when there's snow on the roof).
I drive an EV ('18 Leaf) and have a Level 2 EVSE at home but rarely use it because I can charge at work for free. I have charged a couple of times at home in the evening and the Powerwalls supplied the electricity to fully charge (I don't recall how much "juice" I needed), but they deplete rather quickly when you're charging a car. So, yes, you can charge an EV using the Powerwall. Whether you can do it during an outage depends on solar production and how much electricity your house needs. I do not think you can keep a house going and charge an EV with just one Powerwall. Like I said, we have two Powerwalls, and three would be even better, but I didn't want to spend that much money.
Hope that helps!
srs5694
Active Member
Others have commented on the basic financial issue, but there is another one that hasn't yet been mentioned (unless I've missed it): If you sell your house, it's much better that you own the panels. The lease agreement is likely to be transferable, but a buyer might not like the terms of the agreement you signed. This could result in a lost sale or a reduced sale price (even compared to having no solar panels on the roof). If you own the panels, though, they're almost certain to increase the value of the house and be a "plus" in almost any buyer's view.
This varies regionally, and returns to the point I made in my first post in this thread: It's imperative that a potential buyer of solar panels investigate the laws and options available locally. As I noted in earlier posts, here in Rhode Island, there are two main options: net metering and Rhode Island's Renewable Energy Growth (RI-REG) program. There's probably a more generic industry name for the latter, but I don't know what it is. Basically, under RI-REG, which I use, I continue to buy all the electricity I use from the utility, but they buy the electricity I produce at higher rates than I pay to use electricity. This works out to be a better deal than net metering in many cases, including in mine, unless electricity rates go up at hyperinflation levels. (There's a 15-year contract that fixes the price the utility pays for my electricity, but no similar guarantee that the price I pay won't go up.) It's my understanding that other states are looking at programs like the RI-REG one, but they're fairly uncommon right now. Net metering is much more common, but sometimes there are other options.
I had a good laugh at my last electric bill. it was $0.25. The minimum charge for our hookup would be $5.25, but our utility has a program during summer months called "A/C Cool Credit" where you get a $5 discount if you opt in where they can remotely turn off people's air conditioning for short periods of time to ease grid demand.
There seems to be a big hit on the market value of a house that has leased solar panels. I don't know if the market is being rational or not, but having panels that are owned by somebody else does decrease the price you can get when you sell your house.
I bought solar bonds from Solar City because I liked the idea of enabling the installation of solar for people who lack the capital to pay for it themselves, and I get 5% on ten-year bonds. But when I decided to buy some more, they had quit offering them. I think maybe that part of their business evaporated because nobody wanted to lease panels.
I'd say buy, don't lease.
You fellows are lucky to be getting any credits at all. Solar is so popular here on Maui that the utility won't accept any power from new solar installations. My panels sit idle, producing nothing in spite of abundant sunlight, for a big part of the day, because my Powerwalls are full and my A/C isn't running at the moment. And if I use no grid power at all I still pay a $26.17 monthly minimum. (I can draw about 40 kWh from the grid before my bill goes over that $26.17.) With one more Powerwall I could probably disconnect from the grid entirely, but to save $26/month that would be a poor investment.
I have no regrets about "overbuilding" however, because I'd rather have too much capacity than not enough. But I'd gladly give the utility my excess power for nothing, just to reduce the amount of diesel they burn to run their generators.
5kW Solar here on the grid in Colorado since 2014. I had a deal through my work to get a small kickback for using the company's recommended solar panels. But then we had to get a contractor to install - went with Namaste. They were great. Of course at this time we were able to get the full tax rebate ~8k; and another ~2k back from my work - so basically took 10k off of 30k bill - to be paid over 12 years, and roughly 120/month. (like buying a car) We paid this off early. The panels now put out about 3.8 kw, and run a cumulative 30kw, with us using only 10kw (based on the net meter) - so we use about 1/3 of what we produce. We bought a Leaf, and installed a level 2 charger, and have since acquired a M3 - and I can't say we always charge when the sun is shining, but I try to. We also got a deal with the power company for 10 yrs, to pay us 8 cents per kw/hr that we push onto the grid. (that was just before they started dropping that to 5 cents, and then nothing) And we are under contract to provide to them for 10 yrs, after which we can do whatever with the panels - they are ours, we can take them with us, or just sell with house. I think it's a great idea, since we were paying on average with kids in the house, about 130/month on electric, and that dropped to about 15 dollars a month - and it varies, and yes sometimes we get paid back. Of course Excel pays us 8C /kWh but charges us 11C /kWh. I keep thinking if they try to screw us we can always 'cut the cord' so to speak and buy some batteries.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
I'm sure that was a typo but it gives me a chance to share a funny story.
At the plant I worked at Xcel would call on high demand days to get us to conserve. Our control room called around to offices telling them that 'Excel' is requesting we shutdown anything unnecessary. One of the secretaries asked matter of factly if she should close 'Word' too....
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