Why does Tesla say the car will come find you in a parking lot?

[Tam]

...Who will assume responsibility for accidents?...

It's a beta feature or unfinished product so whoever uses it is responsible.

Currently, it works in 150 foot diameter so a remote driver can have a line-of-sight to supervise its operation.

...Where are the safety considerations in using this feature?

I think it currently works with a dead man switch which means a remote driver have to continuously press on the phone app or it will stop working.

...Will this require approval by state governments?...

It's a grey area.

Most parking lots that we use are private.

Are Stop Signs/Speed Limits Enforceable In Parking Lots?

But what about courthouse parking lot? I think I could get ticketed for remote driving a car.

 

[gnuarm]

It's a beta feature or unfinished product so whoever uses it is responsible.

Currently, it works in 150 foot diameter so a remote driver can have a line-of-sight to supervise its operation.



I think it currently works with a dead man switch which means a remote driver have to continuous press on the phone app or it will stop working.



It's a grey area.

Most parking lots that we use are private.

Are Stop Signs/Speed Limits Enforceable In Parking Lots?

But what about courthouse parking lot? I think I could get ticketed for remote driving a car.

The "private/public" issue is moot. You need a license to drive the car even in the shopping center and can be charged with drunken driving in a parking lot, etc., etc., etc.

I don't think Tesla can escape responsibility for the safe functioning of the car by calling the features "beta". It's not a cell phone where the worst that can happen is your call gets dropped. Auto pilot is "beta" and Tesla is being sued for accidents... fatal accidents.

 

[StealthP3D]

The "private/public" issue is moot. You need a license to drive the car even in the shopping center and can be charged with drunken driving in a parking lot, etc., etc., etc.

I don't think Tesla can escape responsibility for the safe functioning of the car by calling the features "beta". It's not a cell phone where the worst that can happen is your call gets dropped. Auto pilot is "beta" and Tesla is being sued for accidents... fatal accidents.

Nothing is 100% safe. You could drop your cellphone while fueling a gasoline-powered car and, depending upon the design of the cell phone, it could cause a spark upon impact and ignite the gasoline vapors on fire. Big fireball, dead people. It could fail to work for an emergency 911 call with lives on the line. All products have product liability, it's a cost of doing business.

Fortunately, Tesla products are increasing the safety of the vehicle fleet with fewer fires, fewer accidents when cars are using AP and better crash safety designed into the chassis. All this results in less property damage, fewer injuries and less death, not more. People get into parking lot accidents on a daily basis without any help from Summon. Summon looks in all directions, unlike many drivers which is why there are so many accidents in parking lots. Your pre-occupation with Tesla liability makes you look silly considering they are actually far safer than competing products. At least it matches your profile photo.

 

[gnuarm]

Nothing is 100% safe. You could drop your cellphone while fueling a gasoline-powered car and, depending upon the design of the cell phone, it could cause a spark upon impact and ignite the gasoline vapors on fire. Big fireball, dead people. It could fail to work for an emergency 911 call with lives on the line. All products have product liability, it's a cost of doing business.

Fortunately, Tesla products are increasing the safety of the vehicle fleet with fewer fires, fewer accidents when cars are using AP and better crash safety designed into the chassis. All this results in less property damage, fewer injuries and less death, not more. People get into parking lot accidents on a daily basis without any help from Summon. Summon looks in all directions, unlike many drivers which is why there are so many accidents in parking lots. Your pre-occupation with Tesla liability makes you look silly considering they are actually far safer than competing products. At least it matches your profile photo.

I will disagree with your claim that Tesla cars are safer than other cars. To support that I will quote my insurance company who specifically told me my car has a high premium because it has more accidents than typical.

It's nice to sit in an armchair and talk about how great these new features are. But whether or not they actually improve safety or save money requires actual evidence. Well, some of us would like to see evidence. Others will support Tesla no matter what the facts say.

 

[JulienW]

I will disagree with your claim that Tesla cars are safer than other cars. To support that I will quote my insurance company who specifically told me my car has a high premium because it has more accidents than typical...

Humans cause the vast majority of accidents and not cars. So you insurance compony is claiming less safe Tesla DRIVERS but NOT less safe Teslas. The 3 Teslas are the SAFEST cars.

 

[StealthP3D]

Humans cause the vast majority of accidents and not cars. So you insurance compony is claiming less safe Tesla DRIVERS but NOT less safe Teslas. The 3 Teslas are the SAFEST cars.

And the insurance agent was simply wrong about that. Teslas do cost more than average to repair when in an accident but they are less likely than average to be in one when using AP. And far less likely than average to cause significant injury or death when in an accident.

When someone that works for me (like my insurance agent) displays ignorance, I fire them and get one who knows what they are talking about.

 

[Tam]

...The "private/public" issue is moot...

I don't think Tesla has obtained a permit for a car driving around without a licensed driver in the seat such as the current simple summon

Soon, the 150 foot summon will even attract police attention much easier.

...I don't think Tesla can escape responsibility for the safe functioning of the car by calling the features "beta"...

It is true that people can sue whether it's a perfect product or a beta product.

So, beta or not beta is not criteria for lawsuit.

However, when a consumer enters into a contract with Tesla, the contract clearly spells out that it's the owners who are responsible for the driving of the car at all times.

If owners don't like that contract, they should either re-write it or don't pay the money which means not entering into the contract.

If I paid my money and clicked on the red paint choice on the web when I receive a red Tesla, I can certainly sue it for delivering me a red car but it does sound ridiculous!

Same logic with buying a beta Autopilot then sue Tesla because it doesn't work like a finished product!

 

[WilliamG]

I will disagree with your claim that Tesla cars are safer than other cars. To support that I will quote my insurance company who specifically told me my car has a high premium because it has more accidents than typical.

It's nice to sit in an armchair and talk about how great these new features are. But whether or not they actually improve safety or save money requires actual evidence. Well, some of us would like to see evidence. Others will support Tesla no matter what the facts say.

There’s no way a Tesla OR Tesla driver has more accidents than typical. No. Way. Get a new agent/insurance company.

 

[JulienW]

And the insurance agent was simply wrong about that. Teslas do cost more than average to repair when in an accident but they are less likely than average to be in one when using AP. And far less likely than average to cause significant injury or death when in an accident.

When someone that works for me (like my insurance agent) displays ignorance, I fire them and get one who knows what they are talking about.

Totally agree and almost edited my post to say that S & X's were just so expensive to repair and this was really the main reason. But of course my original point still stands.

 

[gnuarm]

Humans cause the vast majority of accidents and not cars. So you insurance compony is claiming less safe Tesla DRIVERS but NOT less safe Teslas. The 3 Teslas are the SAFEST cars.

Really? You can't appreciate that cars are factors in accidents? One issue with the model X that is obvious is the huge front pillars. I can't tell you how many times it has been hard to see if a car or pedestrian is in the way of making a right turn or even a left. I have pretty much given up trying to look over my shoulder when changing lanes and depend on the car to alert me. The rear visibility is abysmal.

 

[StealthP3D]

Really? You can't appreciate that cars are factors in accidents?

Julien never said that. He said human error causes many more accidents than any failing of the vehicles. Which is true.

It looks like you just come here to make up arguments and stir up negative feelings. If you wouldn't mischaracterize what everyone says, maybe you wouldn't have anything to take issue with.

 

[gnuarm]

I don't think Tesla has obtained a permit for a car driving around without a licensed driver in the seat such as the current simple summon

Soon, the 150 foot summon will even attract police attention much easier.



It is true that people can sue whether it's a perfect product or a beta product.

So, beta or not beta is not criteria for lawsuit.

However, when a consumer enters into a contract with Tesla, the contract clearly spells out that it's the owners who are responsible for the driving of the car at all times.

If owners don't like that contract, they should either re-write it or don't pay the money which means not entering into the contract.

If I paid my money and clicked on the red paint choice on the web when I receive a red Tesla, I can certainly sue it for delivering me a red car but it does sound ridiculous!

Same logic with buying a beta Autopilot then sue Tesla because it doesn't work like a finished product!

I think you don't really understand product liability law. Ok, let's paint this scenario. Someone is injured by a Tesla on autopilot which causes an accident the driver didn't or couldn't prevent. The Tesla driver is sued and the insurance company settles for the maximum amount, but that is not enough to cover all the damages. The injured person goes after the Tesla driver and gets an award, but still there is not enough to cover all the damages. Sooo... the injured then goes after Tesla for the remainder.

Now, virtually every part of your argument of personal responsibility goes out the window since the driver is no longer part of the equation.

Is Tesla required to sell products that do not cause undo harm? Or are they exempt from product liability law?

 

[gnuarm]

There’s no way a Tesla OR Tesla driver has more accidents than typical. No. Way. Get a new agent/insurance company.

No way? That's the sum total of your argument? No facts, no statistics, just "no way"?

I've already pointed out one way the model X is unsafe, the poor visibility due to the oversized roof pillars. Another is the overly complex and difficult to operate while driving console. Just adjusting the heater controls requires multiple button presses with no tactile feedback which requires a driver to take his eyes off the road for some seconds while fumbling with the controls. Even looking at the map or the entertainment center causes a loss of focus on the road way. Don't tell me this is never a factor in accidents. Distracted driving is a huge issue in accidents. In Maryland even having a cell phone in your hand while driving is illegal, but pressing buttons on the Tesla console is totally OK even though it can be just as distracting.

Here's a bit of irony. When on autopilot the driver must maintain a certain level of pressure on turning the steering wheel to let the car know "hands are on the wheel". That's when your role is to back up the autopilot. But when the autopilot is disengaged and you are fully responsible for driving the car, there is no monitoring of your hands or your attention... at all.

 

[OCR1]

I will disagree with your claim that Tesla cars are safer than other cars. To support that I will quote my insurance company who specifically told me my car has a high premium because it has more accidents than typical.

It's nice to sit in an armchair and talk about how great these new features are. But whether or not they actually improve safety or save money requires actual evidence. Well, some of us would like to see evidence. Others will support Tesla no matter what the facts say.

OK so where is the evidence? One insurance company having high rates for Teslas doesn’t tell me anything. Are they quoting any specific facts to base this claim on? What evidence is out there to suggest that Teslas are less safe than other cars or are involved in more accidents than other cars?

 

[gnuarm]

OK so where is the evidence? One insurance company having high rates for Teslas doesn’t tell me anything. Are they quoting any specific facts to base this claim on? What evidence is out there to suggest that Teslas are less safe than other cars or are involved in more accidents than other cars?

Do you understand how insurance companies operate?

 

[OCR1]

Do you understand how insurance companies operate?

Yes.

 

[Tam]

...product liability law?...

I agree with your complex scenario.

Similarly, a pedestrian hit by a car can first get compensation from the driver. When the driver's insurance is not enough, the plaintiff can also sue the city because of the road condition, paint markings, traffic lights that allow drivers to turn right when red...

The victim can also sue the manufacturer of the traffic cameras that distracted the driver and the pedestrian got hit as the result. Also the painter who painted the sign that traffic cameras are used in this intersection too! The driver read the sign and got distracted! How else the pedestrian got hit?

So, it's not just a driver, car manufacturer, city but anyone else can be sued too.

But the first answer for a Tesla owner about who's responsible is: The manual owner says Tesla does not accept responsibility when a driver is using Autopilot. So don't count on shifting the responsibility to the city, traffic camera company, traffic sign company...

 

[StealthP3D]

I think you don't really understand product liability law.
Is Tesla required to sell products that do not cause undo harm? Or are they exempt from product liability law?

Wow! Just wow!

I think you are like the worry wort that never stops worrying. If Elon Musk worried as much as you, he never would have started SpaceX (a rocket might fall on someone and kill them), he never would have started Tesla (someone might crash or sue them), he never would have started The Boring Company (there might be an earthquake and the tunnel could collapse). Yes, there is always some risk. That's how progress happens. I'll say it again:

There has never been a product created that didn't create product liability. It's a cost of doing business. When you do it wrong, you go out of business, bankrupt or no one will insure you. But Tesla products are pushing the safety standards forward, not backward. Tesla has expert lawyers in product liability and they know exactly what the risks are and how to increase the safety of their customers and the people at large. Humans are terrible drivers, very inconsistent and refinery pollutants and fossil cars kill thousands every month. I'm pretty sure parking lots see plenty of accidents with only human drivers. Summon is more cautious than that and for good reason. You need to stop trying to be Tesla's nanny. The world has enough nannies and if the nannies were in charge, nothing would ever get accomplished. I'm surprised you are brave enough to get out of bed in the morning. Actually, I'm not sure you actually do. Because you could get hit by a car or something. Then you might sue the manufacturer of your bed for not including restraining straps.

 

[gnuarm]

Yes.

Then you understand that they have rather exhaustive records of every aspect of the events they cover in their policies. So when they say their rates for Tesla cars are higher because of higher accident rates, they are basing this on their records of accidents, no?

 

[StealthP3D]

Then you understand that they have rather exhaustive records of every aspect of the events they cover in their policies. So when they say their rates for Tesla cars are higher because of higher accident rates, they are basing this on their records of accidents, no?

Tesla cars have a lower accident rate than the average car. You need a new insurance agent, one that won't feed you a bunch of bull-cocky.