Just a question, was there any reversible heat pump available at any car OEM when they designed the Model S? And the model 3? Please give sources.
Model 3? That was few years ago. Many MANY EV's had HP for that time.
Model S? That came out in 2012?
When Nissan Leaf came out in 2011, it did NOT have HP but due to necessity, it had that since 2013 update.
Tesla has not added HP capability for 6 years and apparently have no plan as of right now.
This year we will DEFINITELY hear negative feedback from Norway from Model 3 owners.
Model 3 is more efficient compared to S/X - therefore not having HP will result in higher range loss in chilly weather.
wdolson
Well-Known Member
Tesla hasn't offered the solid roof on the Model S anywhere for about 2 years now. I got the solid roof in 2016 and I love it.
SmartElectric
Active Member
This thread is full of Tesla owners who either care deeply that a specific underlying technology (heat pump) is used within their vehicle.
Yet,
. Tesla sells the longest range EV's available, regardless of the underlying technology within the car.
. Tesla EV's have the best long distance charging options especially in Norway (and world wide)
. Cabin heating technology is not a driving indicator of product demand, otherwise Nissan would be selling more Leafs
If I was Tesla, I'd continue focusing on the technology and efficiency of the drive train and battery pack, and never put a more complicated technology like heat pump (and the necessity of backup resistance heating).
After 24 pages, you're not going to convince anyone who has a strongly held opinion one way or the other, but for sure, you're not going to convince Tesla who have focused IMHO on the right things to optimize on the platform.
Reeler
Decade of Pure EV Driving
The commute to the slopes from my house has a regular multi-hour traffic jam over two miles in the sky in below zero weather. It is not unusual for this pile-up to take up to 5 hours on a Sunday night after a powder day. I just drive now with all my ski gear on and minimally use HVAC when my windows fog. Even with 300 miles "range" I have had some close with my range.
If folks put down the Teslaquila (AKA Tesla kool-aid), it is clear this is a fail on Tesla's part. Just lazy engineering.
What is the idea of stating obvious things and/or things that are offtopic (charging network)?
Long range doesn't mean efficient. Low efficiency means more carbon footprint. Have you ever thought about energy requirement of vehicles? Or "having EV already means untouchable cleanliness"?
GlmnAlyAirCar
Active Member
If you call that lazy engineering then you don’t understand engineering. Engineering is a series of trade-offs. Tesla’s engineering decision, based on market, technical, resource, and many other factors, is to stick with resistance heat. You may be able to challenge the trade offs, but it’s ridiculous to assume they didn’t integrate a heat pump just because they didn’t feel like it.
SmartElectric
Active Member
Riiight. Keep on wearing your winter wear. I'll just keep running the HVAC on auto 22C in our Tesla S85 with my short sleeves here in Canada where we get good cold winters.
I also drive a Smart ED, with a 17.6 kWh battery pack, I've been stuck in 2 hour traffic jams in -20C, and the average usage was <6 kWh over that two hour period mostly standing still. I've never suffered from range anxiety, and never turned the heat down in 5 years of driving and we absolutely get crazy cold here.
A large Tesla battery with similar power consumption will maintain cabin temperature for 5 hours with 15 kWh, a fraction of the total capacity.
Reeler
Decade of Pure EV Driving
I was thinking of a drinking game where I would have to down a shot of Teslaquila every time a fanboi made a ridiculous one-sided comment on this forum. I figured that I would quickly die of alcohol poisoning so vanquished the thought.
Heat pump is NOT a new device onboard the vehicle. There are no PUMPS onboard a vehicle that has heat pump capability.
How many times non-tech people have to read this until they get it!
Tesla is stuck in "keep it simple stupid". And it's stupid. For that stupidity users have to pay money.
Tesla range and especially efficiency in cold weather is not "the best in class". It's just EPA/WLTP range/efficiency that is "top notch".
How many times non-tech people have to read this until they get it!
Tesla is stuck in "keep it simple stupid". And it's stupid. For that stupidity users have to pay money.
Tesla range and especially efficiency in cold weather is not "the best in class". It's just EPA/WLTP range/efficiency that is "top notch".
SmartElectric
Active Member
Um <----
Look left on your screen, do you see my avatar? I drive the most energy efficient vehicle, a tiny Smart Electric. It uses the least energy from materials, production and usage compared to any other vehicle, Tesla or anything else for a short commute.
The difference in carbon usage for a Tesla vs Smart ED vs Nissan Leaf with heat pump to heat cabin is laughably small. My friend with a Nissan Leaf with heat pump uses as much electricity as I do in Smart ED, and I know that is also nearly the same as our Tesla, within a few percent.
Ontario grid CO2 production per kWh (Gridwatch) is very low.
Eating meat is a much worse offense than Tesla not putting in a heat pump.
So, yes, I have "thought of it".
SmartElectric
Active Member
I think the legacy auto makers including Nissan would not be calling Tesla "stupid" in terms of their engineering choices.
You keep claiming Tesla is making a fundamental mistake, yet here was are 24 pages in, I post a measured response and am told I haven't thought it out.
Presumably you have.
It's pretty obvious the market has spoken, people want range, tech and Tesla has delivered.
There are rumors floating around that Tesla has eliminated the PTC air heater in the Model Y. (Even if true that doesn't mean that they are putting a heat pump in.)
1 million Teslas with HP compared to 1 million Teslas without HP is around 700 000 000 kWh= 700 GWh of energy annually.
You think that is "little"?. For a simple design choice. Irresponsible design choice.
You think that is "little"?. For a simple design choice. Irresponsible design choice.
I think your number is incorrect.
With a COP of 2, an energy difference of 700kWh implies a heat load of 1,400 kWh or over 4 million BTUs.
The cabin heater is 6kw, so that is 233 hours of full blast heat a year. 4 months of winter equals 3 hours of heater a day. Or, spread over a year, that is 38 minutes a day, every day, all year, for the entire fleet.
With a COP of 3, an energy difference of 700kWh implies a heat load of 1,050 kWh or over 3 million BTUs.
The cabin heater is 6kw, so that is 175 hours of full blast heat a year. 4 months of winter equals 1.4 hours of heater a day. Or, spread over a year, that is 29 minutes a day, every day, all year, for the entire fleet.
My commute is shorter than that. 700 kWh at 300 Wh/mile is 2,333 miles. A person would get the same energy savings by moving 4.7 miles closer to work. Is a 5 miles extra commute each way also irresponsible?
700 kWh a year require around a 600W solar system here in Michigan. Panels are currently <$1/Watt, so for $700 one could install sufficient additional solar (assuming an inverter already exists) to offset the presumed heat load. One might even say not installing a solar panel system is irresponsible.
Depending on country. 5 months of heating is expected in some.
COP is around 3. Tesla also heats the battery with COP1, not just cabin.
COP is around 3. Tesla also heats the battery with COP1, not just cabin.
Lon12
Member
I have not read the 23 previous pages. Just thought I'd share my observation. Bought a 2017 Leaf that has a heat pump. My old 2011 didn't.
The pump is extremely noisy. Sounds like the AC on high all the time. It does not heat up as well in -30° weather either.
The pump is extremely noisy. Sounds like the AC on high all the time. It does not heat up as well in -30° weather either.
It's not the pump that is noisy. It's the fans. And fan controller is not well controlled by computer. At least it shuts the fans down when driving at somewhat acceptable speed.
Also at -30 you should have noticed that fans are off. Because pump is switched off.
Keep in mind that in these topics sceptics usually get stuck at -30 weather. Like it's forever.
Also at -30 you should have noticed that fans are off. Because pump is switched off.
Keep in mind that in these topics sceptics usually get stuck at -30 weather. Like it's forever.
Big Earl
bnkwupt
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
We just went through a two-week cold snap with lots of snow, wind and temps in the teens. I LOVED how quickly my Model 3 melted the ice and cleared the windows. In a gas car, I would be waiting for 10 miniutes (minimum) for the engine and coolant to heat up enough that it would START to blow warm air! The Model 3 does it instantly (OK, like 15 seconds).
If it had a heat pump, we would have to wait.
If it had a heat pump, we would have to wait.
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