Will Mercedes jump to level 3 before Tesla? Looks like it.

[Daniel in SD]

I'd not be to breaking my laptop out and doing any work on this either. No idea what the error rate is - and how they have tested.

From whatever I can find - they have basically tested in simulated highways conditions on the testing track they have.

How do we know it is any different from "Level 3" Honda Legend (?) they sold which almost crashed while giving a demo to a journalist.

They claim to have tested very aggressive cut in scenarios in simulation. Here’s their presentation: https://group.mercedes-benz.com/doc...19-02-20-vssa-mercedes-benz-drive-pilot-a.pdf
I didn’t see anything quantifying how much real world testing they did. If they ever release it here I think that all collisions will have to be reported. It will be interesting to see the results.

 

[sleepydoc]

I have not seen anywhere yet them saying explicitly you can't use your phone. By definition, when the car is in L3 mode you are not driving. If this is not the case, then you would still be liable for what the car does when it is in L3, which kills one of its selling points.

I was simply going by what @Daniel in SD posted and took it at face value; I haven't verified it at all.

Well, I have not found that in writing (my recollection could be wrong or they may have changed their stance). There is an obvious safety issue with having your phone between you and the airbag though...

You were the one who brought up an L2 system in the discussion of an L3 system! haha.

Ummm...where did I do that? I quoted your post.

I just pointed out that Mercedes also has a system that is actually essentially equivalent to Autopilot. My intent was to differentiate L2 and L3 systems, not to conflate them.

Yes, but when people pointed out the speed limitation of the system, you said they had a system that worked at 130 km/hr, muddying the picture. If we're strictly talking about L3 then it's 60 km/hr and below in very confined and limited circumstances.

They claim to have tested very aggressive cut in scenarios in simulation. Here’s their presentation: https://group.mercedes-benz.com/doc...19-02-20-vssa-mercedes-benz-drive-pilot-a.pdf
I didn’t see anything quantifying how much real world testing they did. If they ever release it here I think that all collisions will have to be reported. It will be interesting to see the results.

Ha. Simulations are only as good as the imaginations of the people who set them up. I have seen plenty of examples of systems that worked well in simulations but crashed and burned in real life.

Again, despite all of your glorification, the only thing different about this system is the government approval. It's actual abilities do not appear to be beyond what Tesla and others have done and actually appear to be behind. Not minding it, just being accurate and realistic in my assessment.

 

[sleepydoc]

This is just German law-abidingness. Of course you can use your phone. They just can't tell you that you can use the phone because officially the law does not allow phone use while driving. If the law (which is archaic and not written for this situation) didn't say that they would be fine with it. The product allows you to play video games. It is entirely different from Tesla Autopilot, night and day different. However, it is only in traffic jams.

How is it night and day different? looking through the description it appears to actually be the same/slightly more limited version. I just drove 45 minutes in rush hour traffic with my MY on AP. All I had to do was hit the turn signal when prompted and tug the steering wheel every 30 seconds. If Tesla didn't have the safety mechanism in place I wound't have needed to tug the steering wheel at all.

It strikes me that the big achievement here is not the auto pilot system but rather the government approval.

 

[Daniel in SD]

You were the one who brought up an L2 system in the discussion of an L3 system! haha.

Ummm...where did I do that? I quoted your post.

Essentially this is the equivalent of autopilot at half the speed.

Last I checked Autopilot is an L2 system. You are the one that conflated Mercedes' L3 system with a Tesla's L2 system. I merely pointed out that you should compare Autopilot with Mercedes' L2 system which is like Autopilot but works up to 130mph.

Yes, but when people pointed out the speed limitation of the system, you said they had a system that worked at 130 km/hr, muddying the picture. If we're strictly talking about L3 then it's 60 km/hr and below in very confined and limited circumstances.

130 miles per hour. Anyway, hopefully everything is clear now.
I think everyone agrees that Drive Pilot is very limited. I think a lot of confusion comes when people assume L3 > L2.

Again, despite all of your glorification, the only thing different about this system is the government approval. It's actual abilities do not appear to be beyond what Tesla and others have done and actually appear to be behind. Not minding it, just being accurate and realistic in my assessment.

Yes, but to many that's a big deal. If you don't pay attention while using Autopilot and get in a fatal collision you could be charged with vehicular homicide (for example: Tesla driver charged with vehicular manslaughter over fatal Autopilot crash). With a L3 system the manufacturer is liable for all damages.

 

[bradtem]

How is it night and day different? looking through the description it appears to actually be the same/slightly more limited version. I just drove 45 minutes in rush hour traffic with my MY on AP. All I had to do was hit the turn signal when prompted and tug the steering wheel every 30 seconds. If Tesla didn't have the safety mechanism in place I wound't have needed to tug the steering wheel at all.

It strikes me that the big achievement here is not the auto pilot system but rather the government approval.

Night and day. Mercedes lets you ignore the road. Tesla requires you watch the road at all times. Mercedes will take liability for any accident while the system is operating. Tesla puts the liability on you. The Tesla can do this task some of the time. The Mercedes effectively does it all of the time (within the constraints of highway under 60 km/h.) The difference between some (even 99.9% some) and all is night and day.

 

[jeremymc7]

I was initially teased in to the Mercedes media. Then they started getting into all the caveats as other have mentioned and we’ll took me right back to where we were before the announcement. Nothing to see here yet.

 

[momo3605]

Again, despite all of your glorification, the only thing different about this system is the government approval. It's actual abilities do not appear to be beyond what Tesla and others have done and actually appear to be behind. Not minding it, just being accurate and realistic in my assessment.

It’s not about being better or worse than Tesla. This continues to be an argument I.e whether Waymo/Cruise geofenced L4 robotaxis are better/worse than Tesla L2 drivers assist everywhere.

It’s a different product. An L3 lane keep assist where you don’t have to tug at the wheel and stare forward out the window in mindless traffic is a feature that certain people may find useful.

 

[Bouba]

Night and day. Mercedes lets you ignore the road. Tesla requires you watch the road at all times. Mercedes will take liability for any accident while the system is operating. Tesla puts the liability on you. The Tesla can do this task some of the time. The Mercedes effectively does it all of the time (within the constraints of highway under 60 km/h.) The difference between some (even 99.9% some) and all is night and day.

Only because Mercedes has the power to manipulate the law in the European Union. But if there is a collision will Mercedes try and squirm out of it by claiming that not all conditions were met...you won’t know until it’s been through every court in the land

 

[daktari]

Å

In the end, my Model Y does the same thing, it just requires me to tug on the steering wheel. Plus it can change lanes, make turns, etc.

No it doesn't. No Teslae has L3.

You don't only need to tug your wheel in the Tesla.

What you need to do is pay attention all the time and hold the wheel ready to take over in a split second.

In the Merce though, in a traffic jam below 60 km/h on the autobahn, you don't even need to pay attention!

Btw using a mobile in the driver seat is illegal in most of Europe and the laws don't take into consideration autonomous driving.

 

[Bouba]

The other problem is going to be translating this to the USA where they are far more litigious than Europe and the jury system awards far far higher payouts

 

[daktari]

I am just amazed at the intensity of FUD some Tesla fans will throw at competitors. Such an irony.

 

[Bouba]

No it doesn't. No Teslae has L3.

You don't only need to tug your wheel in the Tesla.

What you need to do is pay attention all the time and hold the wheel ready to take over in a split second.

In the Merce though, in a traffic jam below 60 km/h on the autobahn, you don't even need to pay attention!

Btw using a mobile in the driver seat is illegal in most of Europe and the laws don't take into consideration autonomous driving.

I don’t believe that you are not expected to pay attention...there are too many variables despite Mercedes trying to remove all the variables by their choice of locations. Motorcycles coming up on the outside of of you, the inside of you, both together etc

 

[SalisburySam]

Interesting thread. Bottom line for me: if I was looking for a $120K+ EV, it would def be the EQS.

 

[diplomat33]

Honestly, for the stated constrained use case (major highway, stay in center lane, follow car in front up to 35 mph) - basic AutoPilot could probably run for hours without intervention.

If that is the case and it is safe, maybe Tesla should consider releasing a system that is L3.

I don’t believe that you are not expected to pay attention...there are too many variables despite Mercedes trying to remove all the variables by their choice of locations. Motorcycles coming up on the outside of of you, the inside of you, both together etc

No, you do not need to pay attention when L3 is activated, just be able to take over within a few seconds of when the system asks. So Mercedes is saying that within that narrow ODD, they have considered all the variables and the system can handle them or ask the driver to take over. That's kind of the whole point of L3 is that you no longer have to actively supervise the system all the time. That's why L3 is a big deal. It's the first SAE level where the driver can start not supervising the system in some instances.

 

[OncomingStorm]

its amusing that anyone thinks any maker will take liability for anything. idc if its L5, they will have a list of conditions a mile long, claim you did something wrong and have the lawyers to back it up far longer than you can fight it.

espically in the US, thats a pipedream, sooooo many protections for corporations and the products they make, at best they get a fine that is 0.001% of the profit they made off the product that killed a bunch of ppl haha. (case in point the Sackler family)

 

[Yelobird]

It’s just my opinion after using FSD Beta for a year now but if Tesla imposted all the posted limits of must be under 35mph, single lane, only highway, no turns, etc they could Easily qualify turning off the nag as outlined here. Granted Many would complain that’s Not FSD L3! Ask anyone using a weighted steering device (not suggested), it already can do this very thing. Just sayin.

 

[diplomat33]

It’s just my opinion after using FSD Beta for a year now but if Tesla imposted all the posted limits of must be under 35mph, single lane, only highway, no turns, etc they could Easily qualify turning off the nag as outlined here. Granted Many would complain that’s Not FSD L3! Ask anyone using a weighted steering device (not suggested), it already can do this very thing. Just sayin.

If Tesla is capable of L3, then they should do it.

 

[Bouba]

If Tesla is capable of L3, then they should do it.

Because when Tesla declares L3 it will be a true L3

 

[diplomat33]

Because when Tesla declares L3 it will be a true L3

What do you mean by "true L3"? A system is either L3 or not. The Mercedes system is true L3. If Tesla deploys L3, then it will also be L3. Maybe the Tesla L3 will be better than the Mercedes L3, but it will not be "true L3", it will still be L3.

I think we need to avoid this idea that if we don't like a system or it does not meet our expectations of what we want in a SAE level, then it is not "true". If a system is a level, then it is that level. There is no such thing as "true L3".

 

[Daniel in SD]

Only because Mercedes has the power to manipulate the law in the European Union. But if there is a collision will Mercedes try and squirm out of it by claiming that not all conditions were met...you won’t know until it’s been through every court in the land

The user is not responsible for knowing when the system can be engaged. Believe it or not engineers have thought of basic issues like this.