Will Mercedes jump to level 3 before Tesla? Looks like it.

[Tam]

How did they get L3 certified when their software only works in high density areas and under 40mph?

The United Nations does and there are about 60 countries comply but the US does not recognize the UN's authority in Autonomous Vehicle regulations:

UN R157 Amended to Expand L3 Usage

 

[EVNow]

How did they get L3 certified when their software only works in high density areas and under 40mph?

It is self-certified. The regulation has posted what to test (that is where I found "test for 5 minutes") and the OEM tests according to the specs and certifies.

 

[caligula666]

Contrary to some critics above, L3 up to 40mph is actually pretty good. It means you can get a decent L2 system (not worse than Tesla’s) on highways and other 80-90km/h roads, and switch to full L3 when you are in the city (where it is mostly limited to 50km/h anyway, that is, under 40mph), where driving can be pretty boring and take a long time with traffic. So I don’t take it as « a super limited L3 », I take it as « L2 with a L3 in bonus in city center ».

Also, whoever was commenting that Mercedes « is doing the law in Germany based on what they have », care to provide more references to this? Germany, much like other EU countries, use UN regulations, which Mercedes has as much power to influence as any other car manufacturer that cares to extend them.

 

[Mullermn]

switch to full L3 when you are in the city (where it is mostly limited to 50km/h anyway, that is, under 40mph), where driving can be pretty boring and take a long time with traffic. So I don’t take it as « a super limited L3 », I take it as « L2 with a L3 in bonus in city center ».

Is it city centres? I thought it was limited to geofenced and pre-approved highways? And it only works if the sun isn't blinding the cameras, there's traffic to follow (but it isn't moving too fast) and it's not raining.

Like I said above, there are no doubt some people who will find this useful but I can genuinely say it's been months if not years since I was in traffic that met these conditions for more than a couple of minutes. I guess this varies based on where you live, but now that we have heavily managed motorways in the UK and post-Covid I just don't encounter the same sluggish traffic that I used to.

PS. Happy to take correction on these details if you have a source. I searched for a summary but could only find fangirl raving or hater pooh-poohing articles but no actual list of criteria.

 

[kriskros91]

Contrary to some critics above, L3 up to 40mph is actually pretty good. It means you can get a decent L2 system (not worse than Tesla’s) on highways and other 80-90km/h roads, and switch to full L3 when you are in the city (where it is mostly limited to 50km/h anyway, that is, under 40mph), where driving can be pretty boring and take a long time with traffic. So I don’t take it as « a super limited L3 », I take it as « L2 with a L3 in bonus in city center ».

Also, whoever was commenting that Mercedes « is doing the law in Germany based on what they have », care to provide more references to this? Germany, much like other EU countries, use UN regulations, which Mercedes has as much power to influence as any other car manufacturer that cares to extend them.

This isn't true. It's L3 in geofenced highways in traffic. If this was true you'd see a bunch of Mercedes videos in downtown Berlin or something showing off features similar to FSD. I could see this being super useful in big highways in California such as in LA where there is literally parking lot style traffic. That would be useful. Of course this is currently only approved for L3 in Nevada which I don't know how many highways are this congested on a regular basis there.

 

[caligula666]

This isn't true. It's L3 in geofenced highways in traffic. If this was true you'd see a bunch of Mercedes videos in downtown Berlin or something showing off features similar to FSD. I could see this being super useful in big highways in California such as in LA where there is literally parking lot style traffic. That would be useful. Of course this is currently only approved for L3 in Nevada which I don't know how many highways are this congested on a regular basis there.

My bad, I was wrong in thinking it was on city street, that effectively does reduce the appeal of it quite a bit...

 

[caligula666]

Like I said above, there are no doubt some people who will find this useful but I can genuinely say it's been months if not years since I was in traffic that met these conditions for more than a couple of minutes. I guess this varies based on where you live, but now that we have heavily managed motorways in the UK and post-Covid I just don't encounter the same sluggish traffic that I used to.

You are right, I was wrong It is indeed only on highways and at low-speed, a not-too-exciting combination at this point

 

[enemji]

By using that same logic Tesla smart summon should be an L3.

In reality, Tesla refuses to pay for collisions, damages occurred during the operation.

On the other hand Mercedes does if the driver is using its L3.

When Mercedes software requests you need to be able to take over. That is always going to be an unexpected and not scheduled requests.
Which means that you need to be able to take over, which means you need to be monitoring the drive carefully anyways like you do in a Tesla. SAE stupidly shines itself here.

 

[sleepydoc]

I think L3 would have to handle any safety critical situation without human intervention since the ~10s take over time would not be enough for the driver to avoid a collision. The ~10s take over time would only be for non-safety situations where there is no risk of imminent collision and the driver has time to take over (for ex, approaching a construction zone, taking an off ramp, leaving a traffic jam).

But if the system has to handle critical situations anyway, why not just go all the way to L4? That is why we see AV companies like Waymo and Cruise, not even bother with L2 or L3 and just focus on L4. They argue that while L4 is hard to do, it makes more sense to just design a system that does it all. That way you don't have to mess with tricky conditions of when the driver has to take over. Just take the driver out of the equation completely.

a L3 doesn't necessarily need to handle the situations, just recognize what it can't handle and dump it back on the driver.

 

[diplomat33]

a L3 doesn't necessarily need to handle the situations, just recognize what it can't handle and dump it back on the driver.

Yes but that won't work for safety critical situations that require quick intervention. With L3, the driver is allowed to read a book or watch a video. The driver won't be able to go from reading a book or watching a video to suddenly taking over if the car alerts them to a crash that is mere seconds away. So for those imminent safety situations, the car has to be able to handle it. Recognizing a problem and dumping it back on the driver only works for situations where the driver will have enough time to get back situation awareness and take over.

 

[emmz0r]

The question is if Tesla can do the same as Mercedes. That is- having no nags under certain conditions. In that respect they are lagging behind.

 

[Tam]

When Mercedes software requests you need to be able to take over. That is always going to be an unexpected and not scheduled requests.
Which means that you need to be able to take over, which means you need to be monitoring the drive carefully anyways like you do in a Tesla. SAE stupidly shines itself here.

Many of us are familiar with how Tesla would just suddenly display a red steering wheel icon with blaring audio alarm then the automation just gives up.

Tesla's way is a sudden way and unpredictable way.

Not so with L3.

L3 can only work in certain parameters. When one of those parameters is not met, it gives you a lot of time to get ready to take over.

40 MPH: It can measure how fast the several cars ahead of you start to breach that number and it calculates how long before the car in front of you will and when your car will too. Thus, it gives you lots of time to take over.

L3 prohibited states: your car can enjoy the L3 legal state of Nevada but it can calculate how far, how long your car will enter into the L3 prohibited state of California. Thus, you will get lots of time before you have to take over.

Of course, there are cases that the other drivers are at fault by running the wrong way for a head-on collision, running red light, t-bone us, brake checking us... Those cases can still happen to either robots or us humans.

 

[enemji]

The question is if Tesla can do the same as Mercedes. That is- having no nags under certain conditions. In that respect they are lagging behind.

The confidence is a binary concept of 0 or 1. Nothing in the middle can be handed to a customer and instructed to trust it only in certain conditions. That is setting up yourself for huge liability.

To state it in human terms, your wife cannot state “you can trust me as long as there is no other man around me”.

 

[EVNow]

The question is if Tesla can do the same as Mercedes. That is- having no nags under certain conditions. In that respect they are lagging behind.

Sure. Nissan Leaf had a heatpump long before Tesla cars did.

 

[enemji]

So how is it that Mercedes is able to predict 10 seconds of traffic behavior?

 

[clydeiii]

Define “predict” and “ten seconds of traffic behavior ”..?

 

[Bouba]

So how is it that Mercedes is able to predict 10 seconds of traffic behavior?

That’s a dangerous game

 

[enemji]

Define “predict” and “ten seconds of traffic behavior ”..?

¹SAE Level 3: the automated driving function takes over certain driving tasks. However, a driver is still required. The driver must be ready to take control of the vehicle at all times when prompted to intervene by the vehicle”

The system can ask the driver to take control at any time, a prerequisite for Level 3 autonomy. If the driver does not respond within 10 seconds, the car will come to an emergency stop.

In other words it is predicting that in 10 seconds Drive Pilot will not be able to drive.

 

[clydeiii]

In other words it is predicting that in 10 seconds Drive Pilot will not be able to drive.

I don’t think it does that at all. It realizes it needs a human, waits 10sec for one, then pulls over if no one takes over. Totally different from predicting something 10 seconds in the future.

 

[jeremymc7]

I don’t think it does that at all. It realizes it needs a human, waits 10sec for one, then pulls over if no one takes over. Totally different from predicting something 10 seconds in the future.

This would similar to Tesla then right? Car needs assistance, warn driver, no response, takes over and pulls to side. At least on highway.