So is L3 (and the other levels) official ?... I thought it was just some commonly accepted internet definition
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Will Mercedes jump to level 3 before Tesla? Looks like it.
- Thread starter vapor trail
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diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
The SAE defines L3 as "conditional automation" where the driving system is fully responsible for the driving but only under certain conditions and the driver is the fall-back when conditions changed. The Mercedes system is literally textbook L3 autonomous driving: under certain conditions, the system is driving so the driver can take their eyes off the road but when conditions change, the driver is asked to resume control.
And there are different levels of autonomous driving, that is what the SAE levels of autonomous driving define. The Mercedes system is not full autonomous driving, it is conditional autonomous driving, defined as L3.
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Yes they are official. The levels were created by the SAE in an industry standard called J3016. The SAE is the Society of Automotive Engineers. So they are the official definitions used by the engineers that create autonomous driving systems.
SAE levels are a structure for classifying technologies that did not (and still do not!) exist for the purposes of enabling discussion. That's it.
This treatment of them like a bible or a 1 dimensional measure of who's doing 'better' than the other is totally dumb, it's like arguing about whether invetebrates are better than reptiles.
This treatment of them like a bible or a 1 dimensional measure of who's doing 'better' than the other is totally dumb, it's like arguing about whether invetebrates are better than reptiles.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Correct.
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Flat out false.
There are existing, on public roads right now examples of cars with every SAE level from 1 through 4.
The only SAE level that still does not exist in a real product really on real roads today is L5.
You can argue if they're the "right" way to classify things or not--- but they are the way every piece of legislation regulating self driving has used in part or in whole so far-- and all those technologies (except L5) absolutely exist.
Old cars with no tech are L0, they exist.
Cheap new cars (and most mid-old cars) are L1, they exist.
Teslas ADAS (and that of many others nowadays) are L2, they exist.
Mercedes system (and an even more limited one from Honda) are L3, they exist
Waymo and a few other no-kidding-you-can-ride-in-one-today robotaxis are L4, they exist.
Tha_Ape
Active Member
And level 2 is broad...
My 2010 Prius and 2021 Model Y are both L2. The Tesla is just much better at it
My 2010 Prius and 2021 Model Y are both L2. The Tesla is just much better at it
Then you just need a newer Prius. My 2012 Prius has better adaptive cruise control than my 2019 Model 3.
Tha_Ape
Active Member
The adaptive cruise was fine, but the lane keeping was worse than the Tesla. I have a 2017 Prime and it's lane keep is worse than both of them.
I bought a Comma.Ai for the2017 and that works okay. It sawtooths in lanes, but that's due to the steering angle sensor resolution....I think it's 0.5deg vs something like 0.1deg resolution on modern L2 cars. It's great on highways, just not curvy roads. The stock lane keeping doesn't even seem to do anything in my2017
Lol I've lived in Dallas and Houston and San Diego. Plenty of traffic in all of those cities especially in Houston.
Again, I don't think I would feel comfortable playing a video game or reading a book while driving in bumper to bumper traffic in Houston. People are super aggressive if anyone gives any amount of space and you have to be alert because people cut in all the time. If I was reading a book and the car suddenly jammed the brakes during one such event I would quickly realize that "L3 with eyes and hands off" ain't actually that great. In fact L3 in flowing traffic at 60+ MPH traffic speeds makes me less nervous. People do crazy things in traffic to try to get their commute down by a few minutes.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
I mean, you don't HAVE to use the system of course.
But if I sat in that kinda traffic for an hour or more a day I'd LOVE to be able, legally and responsiblity-wise, be reading a book (L3) instead of remaining alert and actively acting as the OEDR/monitoring part of the driving task (L2 like Tesla offers).
The system braking hard if someone cuts me off would happen either way- but at least I'd be doing something more interesting than staring at traffic inbetween.
I'd also argue that the fact that it can do L3 legally that odds are the L2 features are pretty darn solid.
My biggest gripe with any L2 system I've used in inconsistency.
Not just inconsistency in my own experiences, but in the experiences shared by others.
I don't know when/if I'll ever buy a vehicle specifically for L2/L3 technology, but it would be a nice bonus.
I'd definitely buy a vehicle specifically for L4 if the subscription cost for L4 was reasonable.
I don't think having something unexpected happen when I'm not paying attention is better than having something unexpected happen when I am paying attention.
I also wonder how the legislation for these sorts of things will actually be. If my car is at fault in an accident on the highway when I'm in L3 mode how do I actually prove that to the person that is mad at me for hitting them? Will I trade insurances with that person and call Mercedes to foot the bill for the damages? Will Mercedes pay for my car's damages? Do I bring this concern up at the Mercedes dealership where I purchased the car?
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
I think the fact a multi-billion-dollar company is taking legal responsibility for any system failure is tremendously better.
Also suggests tremendous confidence it won't.
Again you can reasonably argue WELL THAT IS JUST BECAUSE THE ODD IS SMALL.
Sure. But within that ODD they're largely betting their company it's safe.
Every state I'm aware of that allows L3 or higher requires the car maker to have a quite large amount of insurance to operate their system on public roads in that state- so that's who would handle any accident repair costs.
The real risk (for the company itself) is a bad accident involving permanent injuries or death- which is why nobody has actually certified such a system for consumer vehicles before.
I use my Tesla AP in that rush stop & go traffic. It keeps on crawling without banging into the car ahead. So does that make it L3?
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
It doesn't because the car nags you to keep your hands on wheel and the manual and software explicitly says you must be paying attention at all times and be ready to take over immediately.
In the Mercedes, however, in L3 mode you are allowed to take your hands and eyes off the road and you don't have to be ready immediately to take over (only need to do so after that 10 second warning).
Interesting to see rubber-banding happening with Mercedes too. Many people are complaining about Tesla's ADAS rubber-banding.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
No.
Didn't we have a whole long discussion about this previously where I kept suggesting you go read J3016 and it seems you still have not?
Huh?
It's a traffic jam system... if there's nobody for >20 car lengths in front of you you're not in a trafic jam...
and I had very clearly asked for us to stay away from each other. Can you keep your distance? I am posting this just to remind you of that. I won't be responding to your posts though.
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