-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
K Hall
Member
I know it sounds goofy, but a small trailer with a ICE gen set seems like a good solution for really long road trips. You don't have to lug the ICE around all the time like in the Volt, jusk hook up and go when you need it.
This is my plan as well. I will drive my Model S daily for short trips but keep my ICE for long trips until the supercharger is readily available nationwide which will take a few years. I am paying more for Model S because it's electric and revolutionary. Having said that, Tesla should think about their strategy of improving the features, or the lack of, against their competitors in order to attract more customers and become a main stream player. So when I told my friends about ordered the Tesla Model S, I don't have to keep explaining what and who is Tesla? What is Model S, etc.?
Too goofy for me. (maybe a genset in the frunk?) Even Superchargers are too slow for me unless I just wanted to prove I could do a trip in my S. I think batteries need a 5x overall improvement and my purchasing the Model S will help move things along to the next revision. They either need to be rechargible as fast a filling your tank with gas, or be able to run your car at highway speeds (70+mph NOT 55) for as long as you care to drive - or both. ( I have friends who will drive 16 hours - my limit is about 10)
I agree. With the 85 kWh pack, I will be able to go everywhere I need to, and back with some room to spare except for road trips from Toronto to Chicago to visit my daughter. I do that very rarely anyway. My brother lives in LA, but I'm past the age where I'd consider a cross-continent road trip! In my younger days, friends and I would do marathon non-stop (24+ hours) runs down to Ft. Lauderdale by rotating drivers. I suppose for once or twice a year, a rental car or a flight would be a lot more economical than a genset trailer anyway!
fluxemag
Member
No. I've been following Tesla for years, and always said my next car would be electric (the Model S most likely). I caved in and bought a new G37 coupe in 2010. I loved that car in every way...until I got my wife a Lexus CT200h. This reminded me of all the great things about electric cars. When the engine was off in the CT, stopped at a light or cruising through the neighborhood, it was so quiet and with no vibrations. When I got back in my G37, with full exhaust and paddle shifters, it felt like an old fashioned buggy. Sitting there rumbling away, making a bunch of noise. So I ordered my Model S and the wait began.
Now, every timeI see a car that I used to admire, whether it's a CLS63 AMG, or a 750 BMW, I just think of them as relics of a time soon to be forgotten. It would be nice to have a little 6 speed sportscar for sunday drives though.
Now, every timeI see a car that I used to admire, whether it's a CLS63 AMG, or a 750 BMW, I just think of them as relics of a time soon to be forgotten. It would be nice to have a little 6 speed sportscar for sunday drives though.
The Point Behind the Plug In Hybrid
With respect, the idea of a range extender is not the best of both worlds. The plug in hybrid (as in the Volt) really exists simply to deal with range anxiety. On the surface, the idea of a car having two separate propulsion systems and two separate fuel systems makes no sense. Two distinct systems create an engineering problem, a cost issue and requires the loss of significant passenger/cargo space. The reason GM went with the hybrid approach is because they recognize (correctly, and sadly) that many are overly concerned with range anxiety. Range anxiety can be solved in one of two ways. First, with the hybrid approach taken by GM or, second, by adding a lot of battery capacity. (Tesla is going a step further and adding the super charger network.) Much of what we like about the Model S is lost if you add the second propulsion system and second fuel system. Specifically the car would weigh more (and therefore lose acceleration), not have the same handling characteristics, would lose the frunk and the flat floor, it would make noise (when in ICE mode), etc.
We also know that batteries are the main, or at least the single biggest, expense of the all electric car. Likely GM decided that a limited battery capacity would save enough on batteries to allow for the expense of the internal combustion propulsion system. You can think this through for yourself but you'll realize that once you make the plug in hybrid decision you will need to limit the battery capacity otherwise you really do end up paying fully for two propulsion systems. Add to this the fact that there are clearly space issues with a large battery pack and everything else that goes with an ICE and you see that the hybrid idea must limit the battery size.
As EV enthusiasts we know that the average driver drives 37 miles per day and that 90% of all drivers drive less than 100 miles per day. But the average driver doesn't think of things in these terms or realize that range anxiety is, for most, a non-issue. GM recognizing this, is, in my opinion, using the plug in hybrid to get people to recognize, on their own, that range anxiety is a non-issue. If you read comments by Volt owners they love to drive without using gasoline. As they gain experience they are going to conclude that they don't need gasoline. GM will, over time, add battery capacity and remove the ICE. Same with Toyota for the Prius line.
My very strong view is that when we look back at this time a few years from now we will wonder why anyone bothered with the plug in hybrid idea. As with any transition there will be some angst and even resistance. This is largely psychological in nature. The plug in hybrid is serving a very real need to help us bridge the range anxiety gap. Once we (and by we I mean the people with range anxiety) accept the fact that never having to stop for fuel is better than getting to stop for fuel then the need for the hybrid is gone. Tesla can see this future and they are making it happen. Even better, they are building out the super charger network to kill off any range anxiety that might still exist.
With respect, the idea of a range extender is not the best of both worlds. The plug in hybrid (as in the Volt) really exists simply to deal with range anxiety. On the surface, the idea of a car having two separate propulsion systems and two separate fuel systems makes no sense. Two distinct systems create an engineering problem, a cost issue and requires the loss of significant passenger/cargo space. The reason GM went with the hybrid approach is because they recognize (correctly, and sadly) that many are overly concerned with range anxiety. Range anxiety can be solved in one of two ways. First, with the hybrid approach taken by GM or, second, by adding a lot of battery capacity. (Tesla is going a step further and adding the super charger network.) Much of what we like about the Model S is lost if you add the second propulsion system and second fuel system. Specifically the car would weigh more (and therefore lose acceleration), not have the same handling characteristics, would lose the frunk and the flat floor, it would make noise (when in ICE mode), etc.
We also know that batteries are the main, or at least the single biggest, expense of the all electric car. Likely GM decided that a limited battery capacity would save enough on batteries to allow for the expense of the internal combustion propulsion system. You can think this through for yourself but you'll realize that once you make the plug in hybrid decision you will need to limit the battery capacity otherwise you really do end up paying fully for two propulsion systems. Add to this the fact that there are clearly space issues with a large battery pack and everything else that goes with an ICE and you see that the hybrid idea must limit the battery size.
As EV enthusiasts we know that the average driver drives 37 miles per day and that 90% of all drivers drive less than 100 miles per day. But the average driver doesn't think of things in these terms or realize that range anxiety is, for most, a non-issue. GM recognizing this, is, in my opinion, using the plug in hybrid to get people to recognize, on their own, that range anxiety is a non-issue. If you read comments by Volt owners they love to drive without using gasoline. As they gain experience they are going to conclude that they don't need gasoline. GM will, over time, add battery capacity and remove the ICE. Same with Toyota for the Prius line.
My very strong view is that when we look back at this time a few years from now we will wonder why anyone bothered with the plug in hybrid idea. As with any transition there will be some angst and even resistance. This is largely psychological in nature. The plug in hybrid is serving a very real need to help us bridge the range anxiety gap. Once we (and by we I mean the people with range anxiety) accept the fact that never having to stop for fuel is better than getting to stop for fuel then the need for the hybrid is gone. Tesla can see this future and they are making it happen. Even better, they are building out the super charger network to kill off any range anxiety that might still exist.
+ 3/4
You're probably right enough, and yet, and yet ... Toyota just proclaimed it will stick with hybrids till some other fast-fill tech appears, like hydrogen for fuel cells, etc. European mfrs. are delaying, downscaling, or de facto abandoning EV iniatives. So the market from the supplier end is still pretty much Tesla's to build and own. It may be that the majors are caught in a trap: too much sunk cost (financial momentum) at risk. Despite his desire more to inspire than to conquor, Elon may be stuck with the latter.
That and I think to "balance" the cost of the ICE with the cost of batteries to produce a car that is not too expensive.
And therein lies the rub. My daily commute is about 100 miles not including errands or other "side trips" I may want to make. That's why Model S with 85 kWh pack is my only pure EV option right now.
I feel the same way, but perhaps not as strongly. I recognize the pure electric Model S will work for me in every driving scenario I have except the (admittedly rare) road trip and trailer towing (which a lot of us N. Americans do). Perhaps the future will hold batteries or super-capacitors with much more storage capacity, and "refueling" that can be done much quicker than today's Superchargers.
EarlyAdopter
Active Member
No - it's too big and doesn't have AWD.
Plus, I'm done with ICE, thanks to... the Model S! The advantages of an electric motor are enough to allow me to overlook size and lack of AWD.
Plus, I'm done with ICE, thanks to... the Model S! The advantages of an electric motor are enough to allow me to overlook size and lack of AWD.
KKlabunde
Member
MrJima, No range anxiety - range limitation. I need to drive my S from Houston to Dallas and need to stop somewhere for a 1-2 hr charge that makes the experience not as good as my Volt or ICE. Doesn't have anything to do with anxiety. If I could drive my S as far as I need at normal highway speeds and/or fill it up with electricity in a few minutes then it would be better in every way. As it is, current battery/charging technology is a compromise for trips. (again - nothing to do with anxiety or perception)
Also, although some might, I don't agree that we will wonder why anyone bothered with Hybrids. That would be like wondering why anyone bothered with horse and buggies back in the 1850's. (oh yeah! they didn't have cars back then)
Truth is battery/charging technology has a ways to go. No reason to kid ourselves. Buy/support/develop the best there is and keep at it until we get it where it needs to be....
Also, although some might, I don't agree that we will wonder why anyone bothered with Hybrids. That would be like wondering why anyone bothered with horse and buggies back in the 1850's. (oh yeah! they didn't have cars back then)
Truth is battery/charging technology has a ways to go. No reason to kid ourselves. Buy/support/develop the best there is and keep at it until we get it where it needs to be....
I don't even have my Model S yet, and I have to agree. I take an annual trip from Texas to SoCal in June and return in September, and in a comfortable and capable car, I always knock out 900-1,000 miles in the first day in each direction. My current ICE (2012 M-B CLS550) is an absolute dream on the highway with its air suspension, P85-esque acceleration, radar cruise control and such. As much as I'd love to take the Tesla on this road trip, I'll be taking my other car out there this summer. Even if there were existing Superchargers, the 1-2 hour stops every 250-300 miles would still add too much extra time to the drive. It'd be different if this road trip was a novelty and I wanted to stretch the 1,400 miles out over several days, but after many years of it you just want to get out there and be done with the drive. Having said that, this car is still a marvel and one day all of this will be a non-issue.
stephenpace
VIN S00219
Looks like Bob Lutz asked that same question about a Fisker and answered "yes":
Destino--The Corvette-Powered Fisker Karma: Detroit Auto Show
Destino--The Corvette-Powered Fisker Karma: Detroit Auto Show
Agreed. Hybrid is so popular because one doesn't have to stop by the charging station for hours if you take a long trip. Hybrid is still the alternative to pure ICE for better mpg. We can debate why people bother with hybrid but this is what the industry is endorsing today and continue to develop, not like fuel cells and others. I see pure EV will not excel unless two things happened, 1. Battery technology improves 2-3X or more in capacity. 2. Charging stations like the Tesla's are readily available across the states. The supercharger is a good start but 30 minutes for 150 miles of charging as compared to fill in the gas is still way behind. Needless to say, not everyone buys Tesla EV unless co-operative agreement is made. Tesla has a good start but I'm afraid to say it wouldn't change much unless the industry embraces the idea and develop their own EV, expand and improve the charging stations.
Al Sherman
It's about THIS car.
It's all about the batteries. I think someday we'll look back and marvel at how large our original MS batteries were and how little energy they held.
Now that's a true statement. The S can't get much better as a car in looks and ride. The motor and performance can't get much better either. But the battery will someday look like a laughable relic.
Similar threads
