Wow, we need to find another way to heat EVs

[Orwell]

Who in their right mind would choose buying a BETA software that will take years to be finished over +50% energy capacity and double the motors? I only chose the SR+ because I'm not rich and I wanted the $10,000 incentive Canada has for SR+.

Different people, different priorities

Nothing wrong with that

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

The worst impact of the resistance heaters on range is when it’s super frigid out - which is precisely when a heat pump would be pretty ineffective.

I agree that heat pumps are not a solution to more range in extreme cold.

However, the vast majority of people do not deal with regular extreme cold.
People are much more likely to deal with a lot of cold, and occasional extreme cold, or a lot of what-I-used-to-call-cold, and some cold.

The normal patterns in temperate to cold climates is where a heat pump would help, because it'd raise the typical efficiency and range, lowering operating cost and increasing utility.

However, the question is, how much would the heat pump cost? Because the money could be spent on extra battery capacity. Extra battery capacity increases range when you don't need heat, and increases your fast charging rate.

To me, there is no single solution.
Resistive and capacity for hotter climates.
Heat pump for mild and cold climates.
Fuel heater for extremely cold climates (and I don't include my Central Maine climate in that, a heat pump would be a better balance). Longer term I would favor ethanol heating over diesel, since it's cleaner (with good heaters), we produce a ton of it and will always produce it, and we could do with saving the diesel for the hardest uses to replace.

 

[mswlogo]

I agree that heat pumps are not a solution to more range in extreme cold.

However, the vast majority of people do not deal with regular extreme cold.
People are much more likely to deal with a lot of cold, and occasional extreme cold, or a lot of what-I-used-to-call-cold, and some cold.

The normal patterns in temperate to cold climates is where a heat pump would help, because it'd raise the typical efficiency and range, lowering operating cost and increasing utility.

However, the question is, how much would the heat pump cost? Because the money could be spent on extra battery capacity. Extra battery capacity increases range when you don't need heat, and increases your fast charging rate.

To me, there is no single solution.
Resistive and capacity for hotter climates.
Heat pump for mild and cold climates.
Fuel heater for extremely cold climates (and I don't include my Central Maine climate in that, a heat pump would be a better balance). Longer term I would favor ethanol heating over diesel, since it's cleaner (with good heaters), we produce a ton of it and will always produce it, and we could do with saving the diesel for the hardest uses to replace.

Not only what the heat pump cost in $$$. What does it cost in efficiency as well due to added weight. Especially when it’s not even being used.

 

[coleAK]

It makes no sense to have a heat pump. A heat pump would only work when you don’t really need heat in the first place. Also fuel heat? Really? Sounds like a step backwards. But if you really want it here you go:
Little Buddy Heater

 

[mswlogo]

It makes no sense to have a heat pump. A heat pump would only work when you don’t really need heat in the first place. Also fuel heat? Really? Sounds like a step backwards. But if you really want it here you go:
Little Buddy Heater

I wonder if the Model 3 uses excess motor and battery heat at those "in between temps" like 40F-70F to heat the cabin, after the car is fully warmed up. At lower temps the excess heat from battery and motor probably isn't enough and it needs the heating element. Which is probably very close to when the Heat Pump would start to run very inefficient or not at all.

 

[Bubbatech]

Huuuuuggggeeeeee impact at "cruising at 77". Its not linear power usage its more like exponential. "cruising at 60" is much much much much (much much much much) more efficient, from a power usage, not counting heat. It will take you longer to get there going 60 than 77 so not sure how that math works out, but people really discount the effect speed has on range, and it is HUUUUUGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

This is correct. The force exerted on the car is a function of the square of the speed. The energy requirement as the speed increases is, in fact, exponential.

 

[dsgerbc]

This is correct. The force exerted on the car is a function of the square of the speed.

So, calling it exponential is not correct then?

 

[Dublin 'Eer]

There are very few places where "75" is the "legal" speed limit, even if traffic flow drives that speed. People do not get their "rated range" (MPG) in gas cars driving 75 or anywhere close to that either, they just dont care because they are used to going to a gas station.

I get the rated range and sometimes slight better with cruise set at 78 during the summer in my S with 19” wheels.

 

[Valtor]

In Canadian winter, 45% range loss is pretty standard. 50% seems a bit much, must have been due to speed maybe.

 

[Bob M]

SR+ 90 mile trip. Temps below freezing

First road trip - ok, mini road trip. I was expecting some range loss but was surprised by almost 50%. 77 of the 90 miles was on the highway so not sure of the impact of cruising at 77.

Way out - day: 27 degrees, sun shining
Charged to 230 miles, little over 90%. Got there with 93 miles left, about 37%. Used about 140 of range to go 90 miles.

Way back - night: 22 deg car cooooold
Level 2 charged to 188. Energy graph said I would get home with 11%, actual was 14%, so did not need to spare the heat, radio or speed.

The trip worked as the level two was close and I had 3+ hours before my return. Also had a super charger 20 min away. If I wanted to leave after an hour, not sure I could make that work in the winter time With just the level 2. Will do the trip again in spring and summer, will be interesting to see the differences

Car drove great, fun ride!

but heating is a range killer. More than I expected. I think we might need better solutions or bigger batteries. Can’t wait for battery day.

 

[rsg123]

Don’t forget the sneaky headwind. 10mph doesn’t seem like much when standing outside a parked car but add 10 to 77 and the impact is huge.
I check in with Tesla Winds and Elevation Web Browser App (when my Model X MCU1 browser is working) on highway trips.

This. I left a supercharger with an estimated 15% arrival SOC on my 6% degraded S85. With a 15-20mph headwind I limped home with 4%. The car warned me to reduce speed to as low as 60mph. I kept a constant 70mph and turned off HVAC to avoid stopping to charge again.

 

[sazbean]

I live in Michigan and got a Model 3 Performance in October. When it got colder, I saw a huge dip in range. However, software updates have since mitigated that quite a bit. I do not drive slowly, but do use the seat heaters and keep the cabin temp around 69F which have helped as well.

I regularly drive 100 miles several days of the week. I found that it helped to change the battery readout to % instead of miles because I would freak out when it went from 280 miles to 200 after only 10 miles. When it goes from 80% to 75% after 10 miles it seems more reasonable.

It has taken awhile to get used to how much battery the car uses under different conditions, and I'm certainly more aware of how I drive and how far I drive. I'm definitely more aware of my energy usage. That doesn't stop me from driving it the way I want - just give me more information about how the car will react.

I'm looking forward to warmer weather so the range loss is less of an issue... then it'll just be fast driving that sucks down that battery!

 

[Bob M]

I only scanned a few pages looking for this and I know i haven’t experienced the cold many of you have (rarely below 35 where the seat warmer is always more than adequate for all. I have the ac controls down I think, but at my temps I cannot tell if the cabin heater is on or not. Display is poor. Any tips? Also with such an extremely efficient ac pump, why can’t it be just adapted and reverse cycled to produce heat?

 

[Daggad]

In cold temperatures it seems that the car is more efficient if you manual control the climate.
Turn off AC, not needed as cold=dry. And reduce the fan to 1 or 2.
Seated heats as you like. I have mine on the lowest setting.
Try it, you might be surprised

 

[GWord]

We have the technology

 

[Nocturnal]

This is certainly a downside to the current Tesla build. It wouldn't be nearly as big of a deal with more supercharging options, but at least in the US the colder the possible weather means fewer SCs as well.

 

[Probllama]

I was going to post about this topic last week after driving from Boulder/Denver area to Steamboat Springs (roughly 160 miles one way with significant elevation changes) in unusually cold conditions for Colorado (temperatures dipped as low as -4 while we were driving). It was our first EV roadtrip (Model 3 LR AWD) in the worst possible conditions and a few things were obvious to me:

- Frameless windows are not helping. Not only I could feel the cold coming through the top of the window frame into the cabin but also as ice started to form on the bottom of the window I could not get the window to close 100% to fully seal the cabin once I opened the door to get out for a supercharging stop.

- Glass roof is not helping either. When I touched the roof from inside it was extremely cold despite keeping the cabin around 68 degrees, all the cabin heat rising up met this freezing piece of glass making the heater work harder just to keep up with the heat loss.

- Wipers are useless without a heating element that a 20k Corolla has. After the first time I had to spray, most of the wiper surface end up freezing and making them smudge the windshield instead of cleaning it.

- I constantly had to direct heat to the windshield to avoid it from fogging and freezing, a heated windshield would have cut down my heater use significantly

- The lack of heated steering wheel is annoying. Yes, I did wear gloves but they are not as grippy as my skin so not terribly safe to drive in slippery conditions with gloves on.

 

[PapaH67]

Here is my experience with a 2020 Model S Long Range from my TeslaFi data. The rated range is 373 miles at ideal conditions and Minneapolis in the winter is not those ideal conditions. I got the car December 26th, so I can't even say what the warm weather efficiency is yet. But, I am impressed with how well this car does in the very cold weather. I have also found that the battery pre-heating below about 10 degrees (F) is good for about 15 minutes of driving. After that, the battery gets cold soaked just from the cold air blowing around it and the regen starts decreasing as indicated on the energy display. After sitting outside at work all day, only the below zero (F) days cause the acceleration to also be diminished as indicated on the energy display with yellow triangle and yellow dashed lines. At these same temperatures, my ICE cars get much less than their EPA rated MPG as well. And, the acceleration is really poor until the engine warms up above "too low to read". Growing up in Minnesota, I expect lower efficiency for everything (ICE , PHEV, BEV) when it is cold and plan for that.

My car now has 2020 (!) miles on it with an average usage of 378 Wh/mile. With the "warmer" (30+ F) temperatures, the efficiency has improved my average to 378. I was at about 390 or so prior to that. I keep the cabin at 67 degrees, use the seat and steering wheel heaters when needed, and drive like I normally would (within 5 mph of speed limits). I have gotten several short trips at 15-20 degrees F where the usage was 240-250 Wh/mile, which I think is impressive. I fully expect to achieve the rated efficiency in warmer weather.

Keep your expectations realistic and you will be fine. I'm totally happy with my Model S!

 

[Bob M]

So much for my question about a heat pump, couple of good facts killed that but if components of the car need cooling during colder weather (other than during charging) why can’t some if that heat be used? Also, there are aftermarket kits for sound deadening which also keep out more dirt and water for use around doors and trunk and trunk) sealing areas. I was wondering if anyone has used these and watched for how they impact cabin temps. They seem reasonable in price and would probably save energy (money) If they are at all effective against air incursion ?? (m 3).

 

[iustin]

Surprised to see the speeds mentioned here; in Europe, 75-80 mph (120-130km/h) are the normal speeds on highways, and traffic flows a bit faster than that usually. Is the stated range (for cars sold in Europe) based on much slower speeds?

It is true my ICE has the same range penalties at high speeds, but if have to take into account both cold and speed penalties, then it seems only half the range is usable? Confused.