X90D is really a 65kwh pack with 150 mile range

[sladotron]

Greetings from europe (Russia).

I guess another complaint about range on a one year old X90D (overall a great car).
Its winter and the temperature is not crazy cold here, today only 1 degree celcius (35 fahrenheit). The car has winter studded tires with 19 inch tesla wheels.
I have charged the car to 90% as recommended for daily driving needs. I am not going to talk about rated miles because that indicator is worthless in predicting any kind of real world range and left me stranded once (just like one of Bjorn's trips).
My real world consumption is around 270 wh per kilometer which is nothing out of ordinary.
So after charging to 90% in the morning, at the end of the day I was only able to pull 62 kwh out of the pack with 26 km left of rated range. My total distance travelled was 229 km which is about 143 miles.

I don't understand how can tesla state that battery pack has 90 kwh, when usable energy is only around 65 kwh.
I understand that i only charged to 90%, ok, but that should be around 80kwh then. So where did 15kwh go?

 

[Duke-U]

Heating the battery pack, heating the interior. I read somewhere that heating is taking 6kWh, so a 2hr drive would take like 10kW out of the pack. Add to that wipers, lights etc.

My Model S 90D does a little better at 250 Wh/KM but I have the same frustration.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I don't understand how can tesla state that battery pack has 90 kwh, when usable energy is only around 65 kwh.
I understand that i only charged to 90%, ok, but that should be around 80kwh then. So where did 15kwh go?

Sounds plausible. Degradation and actual usable battery.

The 90 kWh pack has been reported to have the heaviest degradation known in Teslas, so a year in there would be degradation. There is at least one report of around 8% of degradation in that time.

As new, the 90 kWh pack actually is 85.8 kWh total capacity, 81.8 kWh usable. 82% of that (90% you chargerd to and 8% degradation assumption) of 81.8 kWh is 67 kWh. Excuse the rough math, but you should get the idea.

90 battery pack degradation

Tesla Motors: PLEASE stop lying about specifications (60 to 75 upgrade) #66

Tesla Motors: PLEASE stop lying about specifications (60 to 75 upgrade)

Tesla's 85 kWh rating needs an asterisk (up to 81 kWh, with up to ~77 kWh usable)

90 kWh is probably the unluckiest of all the batteries. 100 kWh has more realistic actual kWh, while 85 kWh was better due to less degradation.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Heating the battery pack, heating the interior. I read somewhere that heating is taking 6kWh, so a 2hr drive would take like 10kW out of the pack. Add to that wipers, lights etc.

Nope, all that is counted in the ~65 kWh OP reported.

 

[sladotron]

Heating the battery pack, heating the interior. I read somewhere that heating is taking 6kWh, so a 2hr drive would take like 10kW out of the pack. Add to that wipers, lights etc.

My Model S 90D does a little better at 250 Wh/KM but I have the same frustration.

In my understanding, consumption means total energy spent. It should include heating the cabin, the pack, wipers etc.
Its misleading to exclude those things from consumption

 

[AnxietyRanger]

View attachment 270927

In my understanding, consumption means total energy spent. It should include heating the cabin, the pack, wipers etc.
Its misleading to exclude those things from consumption

It does, @Duke-U is simply wrong (or misleading).

Reality may well be, your car simply has that much less kWh available for usage, as you note.

There is some new conversation right here:

90 battery pack degradation Page 3

 

[Duke-U]

@AnxietyRanger why would I be misleading? I am in the same boat as OP, as I stated above, and I might be wrong and my pack might be degrading like crazy too.. happy now?. Jeez you ARE really a very negative guy huh.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@AnxietyRanger why would I be misleading? I am in the same boat as OP, as I stated above, and I might be wrong and my pack might be degrading like crazy too.. happy now?. Jeez you ARE really a very negative guy huh.

No, my point is that bringing up the heating etc. is misleading, because it has no bearing on this case. It is already calculated into the kWh used. You may well be right about your figures on how much heating affects the battery etc. (i.e. not wrong as is), but simply misleading because those figures were not relevant (already calculated into the kWh usage) - that is what I was trying to say.

I did not mean you had any malice in your thinking.

 

[Duke-U]

Ok point taken.

 

[sladotron]

oh, and by the way, I have never supercharged the pack, nor charged using public charging stations, only through mobile connector.

 

[Duke-U]

One thought: did you ever had the pack to balance itself? This happens if you charge it beyond 94%. Also, the range recalibrates at each recharge, so charging it 100% then drive it all the way down to 0% upto the moment you get serious battery warning (I have let it sit in my drive with heater on untill it was 0%) will calibrate the range calculation. Also balancing the pack will help getting more out of it.

 

[Gwgan]

There are many threads on this. The 90 pack is really an 83 and looses about 5% quickly and then degrades very slowly after that. Accounting for the 10% off the top and the bottom buffer you get what the OP saw. The pack does not balance with 100% charge, it is always balancing, but the range does recalibrate (small differences). 150 miles is the real range in winter.

 

[J1mbo]

If you want an accurate range, you need to start at 90% and drive down to 0%.

The OP doesn't mention if that is what happened, or if it was several trips, which would impact range more.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

at even 35F you will have something like 10% less available energy from the battery.
anyone try google ? there are basic answers to the constant questions about cold and batteries
temperature lithium ion battery available energy chart - Google Search:

 

[AnxietyRanger]

If you want an accurate range, you need to start at 90% and drive down to 0%.

The OP doesn't mention if that is what happened, or if it was several trips, which would impact range more.

That's irrelevant.

OP was measuring kWh used.

 

[sladotron]

Sounds plausible. Degradation and actual usable battery.

The 90 kWh pack has been reported to have the heaviest degradation known in Teslas, so a year in there would be degradation. There is at least one report of around 8% of degradation in that time.

As new, the 90 kWh pack actually is 85.8 kWh total capacity, 81.8 kWh usable. 82% of that (90% you chargerd to and 8% degradation assumption) of 81.8 kWh is 67 kWh. Excuse the rough math, but you should get the idea.

90 battery pack degradation

Tesla Motors: PLEASE stop lying about specifications (60 to 75 upgrade) #66

Tesla Motors: PLEASE stop lying about specifications (60 to 75 upgrade)

Tesla's 85 kWh rating needs an asterisk (up to 81 kWh, with up to ~77 kWh usable)

90 kWh is probably the unluckiest of all the batteries. 100 kWh has more realistic actual kWh, while 85 kWh was better due to less degradation.

AnxietyRanger,

thanks for taking time and providing valuable info.

Its really false advertising I think. I don't think summer consumption is that much different. If I remember right it was still around 250 wh per kilometer or 400 wh per mile. I don't recall how much kwh I was able to pull out of the battery, didn't really bother me until recently.
I really don't know how EPA got that range number. I wish they would also post a kwh per mile number along with their range number.

As far as other comments on lower battery capacity at cold temperatures, i don't think its relevant, because the pack is always monitored and heated to the optimal temperature. So there should not be a temperature related loss of capacity but rather added consumption due to heating of the battery.
I assume that trip meter counts battery related heating, or does it?

 

[sladotron]

If you want an accurate range, you need to start at 90% and drive down to 0%.

The OP doesn't mention if that is what happened, or if it was several trips, which would impact range more.

It was several trips, but all in one day (less than 24 hours).
Thats how generally people use their cars. They go some place, then stay there for a bit, then maybe go to some other place and then come home.
How would several trips impact range more? Even if it does impact in some way, I think it should be counted in the kwh per mile/km number.

 

[J1mbo]

That's irrelevant.

OP was measuring kWh used.

Car does not include consumption while parked in the kWh/mile calculation.

You know this, so I am surprised at your irrelevant and incorrect response.

To the OP: there's a very detailed thread on here by wk057 about how much capacity is in each type of battery, degradation, etc. Would link to it but on mobile, should be easy to find using forum search.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Car does not include consumption while parked in the kWh/mile calculation.

You know this, so I am surprised at your irrelevant and incorrect response.

To the OP: there's a very detailed thread on here by wk057 about how much capacity is in each type of battery, degradation, etc. Would link to it but on mobile, should be easy to find using forum search.

Yeah, that's what I remember too. That's why the trip meter number almost never adds up.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

@sladotron do you have limited regen when starting out on a trip at lower temperatures? If you do then the battery is not at an optimal temperature. temperature of the battery is very relevant regarding energy availability + peak power output
also every time you park and the battery cools off there is that much lost energy from the cooling which is not accounted for(which may be small, i don't know?)
If the car really keeps the battery at ideal operating temp (which I do not believe it does, it keeps it from being at unacceptable temperatures for the chemistry) then it would be using a lot of power all the time in cold temps. It does not and the battery gets cold soaked(when parked) down to a certain point before battery heating will kick in,which I have never seen (only been down to 20F in my S)