10.8 FSD

[john5520]

According to Musk, level 4 should be coming soon (yet again):

Elon Musk Makes Another Impossible Tesla Promise For 2022

This time relating to Full Self Driving.

carbuzz.com

I've never once heard him say that only certain owners are getting Level 4 and others are not. Nor have I seen that written anywhere. I'd love to see or hear that if anyone can produce that proof.

IMO
The level of compute and the complexity of the neural nets required for FSD to drive better than a human, is not yet clear.
FSD may never get to the level of autonomy we want.
We purchased TACC, lane keeping, auto park, and summon...period.
Any other expectations of FSD performance are irrelevant.

We have been given the rare opportunity to experience and contribute to one of the most advanced AI efforts ever.
Our role is singular, identify edge cases in FSD Beta.
That process is going to continue to involve two steps forward and one step back, and could go on for years.

A process that takes 3x the attentiveness of driving yourself.
FSD Beta is not for taking a relaxing Sunday drive with the kids in the back seat.

Discussions about not getting what we paid for, or expecting FSD to drive you to work (or anywhere) are unproductive distractions.

Although I believe automation is the future, I agree that FSD as promised today isn't realistic.

However, I think Tesla is painting themselves in a corner regarding expectations, especially when Musk makes statements like the above. 7,10, now 12K is a lot of money and people are going to expect more than what we're seeing now.

 

[TravelFree]

I have a 2020 MS

I have not been able to call or text since I got beta. V11 didn't help. I also started using EZ access and I don't know if that bunged up me phone connection. I can call only if the person I'm calling has just one number, but I can not hang up. I cant see a text. It makes me think I have to delete my phone and re add it.

I'll look for the icons, and see if that does any good.

We have the same model S. There is no reason why your screen would be different from mine. I don't find the need to have the full screen visualization as I see it is a waste of space. Therefore I haven't been testing for failures using that. I only looked at it once back when I first got beta. I suggest you unselect that first and then know where the access stuff is in v11. There have been many changes, not all are good and will likely change again to fix what people are complaining about, like the missing data. Hidden glovebox access is another that annoys my wife on her model Y.

 

[Reddy Kilowatt]

FYI the 10.9 release tweet coincided with the price hike on the 17th. So that is our target date.

We have the same model S. There is no reason why your screen would be different from mine. I don't find the need to have the full screen visualization as I see it is a waste of space. Therefore I haven't been testing for failures using that. I only looked at it once back when I first got beta. I suggest you unselect that first and then know where the access stuff is in v11. There have been many changes, not all are good and will likely change again to fix what people are complaining about, like the missing data. Hidden glovebox access is another that annoys my wife on her model Y.

Sorry TravelFree is turned off the expanded view also, with no luck. I’ve also checked the settings on my phone. The right thumb wheel is totally dead. The push pads still work. The right side of the screen is still blank because I can’t scroll or select. I’ll see if anything changed this morning when I go out.

 

[diamond.g]

FYI the 10.9 release tweet coincided with the price hike on the 17th. So that is our target date.



Sorry TravelFree is turned off the expanded view also, with no luck. I’ve also checked the settings on my phone. The right thumb wheel is totally dead. The push pads still work. The right side of the screen is still blank because I can’t scroll or select. I’ll see if anything changed this morning when I go out.

sounds like a service request

 

[Knightshade]

I've never once heard him say that only certain owners are getting Level 4 and others are not. Nor have I seen that written anywhere. I'd love to see or hear that if anyone can produce that proof.

You've also not heard him say MCU1 owners wouldn't get certain features without added HW- until he did.

Or that RCCC vs RCCB camera cars would get different features without added HW- until he did.

Or that vertical vs horizontal vehicle screens would get different features period- until he did.



THAT said- I was simply pointing out that buyers of FSD before ~March 2019 were explicitly promised at least L4 self driving during their purchase.

Buyers after that were never promised more than L2 in any description during the purchase--- Elons tweets are not part of a purchase contract.

I was just correcting the previous poster regarding what a buyer ought to "expect" to get for having bought it. I expect to get what was described next to the box I checked to pay the money. That's (at least) L4 (there's an argument for L5 but not a legally compelling one) for me-.

For later purchasers it's L2. There's likely a reason Tesla made such an explicit change in product description during purchase.


That doesn't mean Tesla won't (if they get to L4 at all) deliver it to all FSD buyers. I fully expect they WILL do that- including needed free HW upgrades. It's vastly better for the company to do that (and then get the majority of buyers who didn't pay for FSD to pay for it with confidence) than to try and Nickle and dime FSD buyers once they crack FSD (if they do).


But the change in what they're selling means if they admit they can NOT deliver L4, the # of folks they owe a refund is much much smaller than if they had kept the more expansive product description in the purchase process the last nearly 3 years now.

 

[john5520]

You've also not heard him say MCU1 owners wouldn't get certain features without added HW- until he did.

Or that RCCC vs RCCB camera cars would get different features without added HW- until he did.

Or that vertical vs horizontal vehicle screens would get different features period- until he did.

New hardware needed for new features? What's surprising about that?

Buyers after that were never promised more than L2 in any description during the purchase--- Elons tweets are not part of a purchase contract

L2, L3, L4 and L5 can all autosteer on city streets. I haven't seen any wording anywhere on my contract that I'm promised L2 only.

That doesn't mean Tesla won't (if they get to L4 at all) deliver it to all FSD buyers. I fully expect they WILL do that- including needed free HW upgrades.

I also believe that.

 

[TravelFree]

FYI the 10.9 release tweet coincided with the price hike on the 17th. So that is our target date.



Sorry TravelFree is turned off the expanded view also, with no luck. I’ve also checked the settings on my phone. The right thumb wheel is totally dead. The push pads still work. The right side of the screen is still blank because I can’t scroll or select. I’ll see if anything changed this morning when I go out.

Sounds like a service call is needed, telling them your scroll wheel is broke and let the Tesla expert diagnose it. From what I can see you did what you could that was obvious to me. Good luck.

 

[TravelFree]

You've also not heard him say MCU1 owners wouldn't get certain features without added HW- until he did.

Or that RCCC vs RCCB camera cars would get different features without added HW- until he did.

Or that vertical vs horizontal vehicle screens would get different features period- until he did.



THAT said- I was simply pointing out that buyers of FSD before ~March 2019 were explicitly promised at least L4 self driving during their purchase.

Buyers after that were never promised more than L2 in any description during the purchase--- Elons tweets are not part of a purchase contract.

I was just correcting the previous poster regarding what a buyer ought to "expect" to get for having bought it. I expect to get what was described next to the box I checked to pay the money. That's (at least) L4 (there's an argument for L5 but not a legally compelling one) for me-.

For later purchasers it's L2. There's likely a reason Tesla made such an explicit change in product description during purchase.


That doesn't mean Tesla won't (if they get to L4 at all) deliver it to all FSD buyers. I fully expect they WILL do that- including needed free HW upgrades. It's vastly better for the company to do that (and then get the majority of buyers who didn't pay for FSD to pay for it with confidence) than to try and Nickle and dime FSD buyers once they crack FSD (if they do).


But the change in what they're selling means if they admit they can NOT deliver L4, the # of folks they owe a refund is much much smaller than if they had kept the more expansive product description in the purchase process the last nearly 3 years now.

Agreed, however in my Model S and Y Tesla never states the SAE Level standard. Instead they listed what the car will be capable of and all required hardware and software will be free when the full Self Drive package was purchased to meet these features.
Mostly it will recognize auto steering for NOA on city streets. Left and right turns at traffic control, auto park, summon, auto passing.

As a reminder here is the Level automation standard:

I was surprised when Musk said Level 4 by end of the year. I'm just hoping Level 3 at 99% accurate. I also believe this will require a hardware update including pillar camera relocation to avoid creep and panic stop in traffic. Hope Tesla proves me wrong.

 

[EVNow]

I was surprised when Musk said Level 4 by end of the year.

He didn’t say L4, he said the trend in improvements in intervention numbers show FSD will likely be better than humans this year. L4 was the question Lex asked - but Elon answered in his own way.

 

[john5520]

If te

He didn’t say L4, he said the trend in improvements in intervention numbers show FSD will likely be better than humans this year. L4 was the question Lex asked - but Elon answered in his own way.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1475953997248876550

Elon basically said: yes. But he's made claims about reaching Level 5 before:

Elon Musk: Tesla Will Have Level 5 Self-Driving Cars This Year

Tesla will have essentially fully autonomous self-driving vehicles this year, CEO Elon Musk said in a video recorded for a Chinese AI conference.

www.forbes.com

If all they were planning was L2 then that needed to be clarified. 'Autosteer on city streets' is vague. At what level is the question. It will open them up to a mega class action lawsuit claiming misleading or deceptive marketing of which proof is everywhere.

It's highly unlikely Tesla is going to go down this road and the fact that they're willing to charge 12K for FSD is proof enough. Whether they can achieve L4 (even geofenced) with the current hardware is different question.

 

[EVNow]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1475953997248876550

yes, I’ve watched it. You need to see the whole context. Elon is really answering the intent of the question, not literally.

After all the detailed explanation he gave doesn’t sound like L4.

 

[john5520]

yes, I’ve watched it. You need to see the whole context. Elon is really answering the intent of the question, not literally.

After all the detailed explanation he gave doesn’t sound like L4.

I did, and he did not waver. And better than a human driver can't be anything under L4. Regardless, I posted a link where he claimed L5.

 

[EVNow]

I did, and he did not waver. And better than a human driver can't be anything under L4. Regardless, I posted a link where he claimed L5.

We have had this discussion a million times, no point repeating it.

 

[Daniel in SD]

yes, I’ve watched it. You need to see the whole context. Elon is really answering the intent of the question, not literally.

After all the detailed explanation he gave doesn’t sound like L4.

He talks about getting approval from regulators. What jurisdiction do you think he's talking about? Here in California only L3-L5 are regulated.

 

[Knightshade]

Agreed, however in my Model S and Y Tesla never states the SAE Level standard. Instead they listed what the car will be capable of

Yes- and the capabilities they listed prior to March 2019 require, at minimum, L4 by the definitions you cite there- since they promised the car would drive without requiring anything of a person in the drivers seat. That's L4 at minimum, the lowest level at which it can never require anything from a human.

Anything below L4 requires something of the human (at minimum monitoring and taking over when requested for L3, or actually being the one directly responsible for the overall dynamic driving task at L2 even if the car is assisting with parts of it).


Everything listed as capabilities during the sales process AFTER March 2019 require only L2 at minimum.

 

[Knightshade]

New hardware needed for new features? What's surprising about that?

These aren't just new features. Old camera cars require them for the originally promised features for example.

L2, L3, L4 and L5 can all autosteer on city streets. I haven't seen any wording anywhere on my contract that I'm promised L2 only.

The current FSD sales process today (and ever since March 2019) have only promised L2. Explicitly. Maybe you need to re-read?

Before that it described a system that was minimum L4.


Current system- which explicitly describes what you're getting as L2.

Doesn't mean they won't give you more than promised- but it's clearly, and intentionally, a much narrower promise than the L4+ system previously promised.

 

[john5520]

These aren't just new features. Old camera cars require them for the originally promised features for example.

And were they provided? And free of charge? I haven't looked through the forum yet.

Edit: Did a little reading but didn't come across what FSD feature(s) one camera type supported vs the other.

The current FSD sales process today (and ever since March 2019) have only promised L2. Explicitly. Maybe you need to re-read?

Before that it described a system that was minimum L4.


Current system- which explicitly describes what you're getting as L2.

The currently enabled features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If what we were getting was L2, they could have stopped after the first sentence:

"The currently enabled features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous.: <------This is L2.

"Reliability far in excess of human drivers"<-------- This is not L2. Not even close

 

[Daniel in SD]

dependent on achieving

This is far from a guarantee. I'll sell you a ticket to Kepler-22b dependent on achieving faster than light travel.

 

[john5520]

This is far from a guarantee. I'll sell you a ticket to Kepler-22b dependent on achieving faster than light travel.

I agree it's not guaranteed. I'm not questioning that, I'm just saying that wording isn't describing an L2 system.

 

[lolder]

IMO
The level of compute and the complexity of the neural nets required for FSD to drive better than a human, is not yet clear.
FSD may never get to the level of autonomy we want.
We purchased TACC, lane keeping, auto park, and summon...period.
Any other expectations of FSD performance are irrelevant.

We have been given the rare opportunity to experience and contribute to one of the most advanced AI efforts ever.
Our role is singular, identify edge cases in FSD Beta.
That process is going to continue to involve two steps forward and one step back, and could go on for years.

A process that takes 3x the attentiveness of driving yourself.
FSD Beta is not for taking a relaxing Sunday drive with the kids in the back seat.

Discussions about not getting what we paid for, or expecting FSD to drive you to work (or anywhere) are unproductive distractions.

Tesla has a patent for enhancing gps position perhaps to drive in snow or fog. It's similar to the system that does the same to enable gps auto land at airports. If any Tesla in an area of reduced visibility can determine it's precise position by it's sensors other than gps, it can report the gps error to Tesla. Tesla then sends that gps position correcting data to all cars in that area. The car could then drive blind if precision mapping was also provided for that area. Since vehicles and VRU's would still be undetected it probably would be very unwise for any vehicles to operate in some weather.