12V battery. "Will I ever buy another Tesla? Guess."

[Ostrichsak]

Standard Tesla OEM batteries might last a few months. Or 4.5 years. What's your point? We've seen results that are all over the place here on TMC. My takeaway from all that is the OEM 12V in this application is not consistently reliable and heavily dependent on driving pattern/usage.

Sure, I have ZERO data to back up that it will last 2x longer because they haven't been in existence in this application for that long. I'm looking to get at least 4 years out of the Ohmmu and I am confident enough in LiFePO4 technology that I am willing to give it a try. Guess what, they have a 4 year warranty. Good enough for me. And in many other applications, LiFePO4 has been demonstrated to be superior in many critical categories:

The Complete Guide to Lithium vs Lead Acid Batteries - Power Sonic

There is plenty of data out there to support LiFePO4. I believe all that data over your ranting. Worst case scenario, I paid an extra $300 for this experiment. Heaven forbid. So far so good -- that is still a data point whether you like it or not.

Lastly, I asked you before, what is the warranty on a replacement 12V battery from Tesla? You never answered me. Is it at least 4 years like the Ohmmu?

For all the rest of you out there reading this, do whatever you want -- it's your money. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.

Ranting. ROFL And people wonder why I don't take the time to fully explain crap 37 times.

A couple of quick take-aways from your post....

1) you say that OEM batteries last anywhere between "a few months and 4.5 years" and yet you arbitrarily choose to replace yours at the 4-year mark regardless of how it tests. You don't see why someone might question this decision? Again, you're welcome to do whatever you want with your car and your money but coming on here acting like you're doing something of great value is potentially misleading others with the same type of misinformation these Ohmmmu clowns are trying to cram down people's throats to sell them snake oil.

2) You link to "facts" to back up your case and yet there is ZERO data about EVs, Tesla specifically. Do you understand how the 12v battery demands on an ICE are entirely different than those of an EV? Take the time to educate yourself on those differences and you will see why I'm 100% there is zero gain to be had from these types of batteries in these cars.

3) The Tesla warranty for replacement isn't in question here because it is the standard by which we're comparing aftermarket parts. That said, Tesla warranties the 12v battery for the duration of the 4-yr/50k miles warranty so they must source parts that at least meet that expectation otherwise they're going to be out millions replacing parts for free. You'd agree that that would be pretty foolish of ANY car company, right? If an OEM battery is known to last 5 years give or a take a year (minus a few outliers on either side of the spectrum) then simple math tells us that an aftermarket option would have to last twice as long to justify the price tag being 2x higher. That's 8-10 years just to BREAK EVEN on your investment. If the manufacturer isn't willing to back their product for that time period why would you come to the conclusion that this is somehow going to save you money? The fact of the matter is that the industry standard for a LiFePO4 battery is about 5-7 years of service life. About the same as the Tesla OEM battery that we've all seen first-hand going back to 2012 now. In fact, I would attest that if you plan to replace your battery every 4-years regardless, wouldn't it make sense to use the battery that costs half as much that you've already had luck getting beyond 4-years with? Do you really plan to push that Ohmmu battery to 8-10 years to recoup any of your investment? Not much of what you've said makes sense.

So, based on facts and data instead of emotion and hopes, the people here touting how wonderful these Ohmmu (funny, they all call them by brand name instead of the type of battery... no shilling, right?) batteries are are either trying to convince themselves that they made a good purchase (this is possible, but I doubt it) based on bad/limited information or they're shilling for the company for some sort of kick back behind the scenes selling snake oil. I tend to follow the money.

 

[r1200gs4ok]

Ranting. ROFL And people wonder why I don't take the time to fully explain crap 37 times.

A couple of quick take-aways from your post....

1) you say that OEM batteries last anywhere between "a few months and 4.5 years" and yet you arbitrarily choose to replace yours at the 4-year mark regardless of how it tests. You don't see why someone might question this decision? Again, you're welcome to do whatever you want with your car and your money but coming on here acting like you're doing something of great value is potentially misleading others with the same type of misinformation these Ohmmmu clowns are trying to cram down people's throats to sell them snake oil.

2) You link to "facts" to back up your case and yet there is ZERO data about EVs, Tesla specifically. Do you understand how the 12v battery demands on an ICE are entirely different than those of an EV? Take the time to educate yourself on those differences and you will see why I'm 100% there is zero gain to be had from these types of batteries in these cars.

3) The Tesla warranty for replacement isn't in question here because it is the standard by which we're comparing aftermarket parts. That said, Tesla warranties the 12v battery for the duration of the 4-yr/50k miles warranty so they must source parts that at least meet that expectation otherwise they're going to be out millions replacing parts for free. You'd agree that that would be pretty foolish of ANY car company, right? If an OEM battery is known to last 5 years give or a take a year (minus a few outliers on either side of the spectrum) then simple math tells us that an aftermarket option would have to last twice as long to justify the price tag being 2x higher. That's 8-10 years just to BREAK EVEN on your investment. If the manufacturer isn't willing to back their product for that time period why would you come to the conclusion that this is somehow going to save you money? The fact of the matter is that the industry standard for a LiFePO4 battery is about 5-7 years of service life. About the same as the Tesla OEM battery that we've all seen first-hand going back to 2012 now. In fact, I would attest that if you plan to replace your battery every 4-years regardless, wouldn't it make sense to use the battery that costs half as much that you've already had luck getting beyond 4-years with? Do you really plan to push that Ohmmu battery to 8-10 years to recoup any of your investment? Not much of what you've said makes sense.

So, based on facts and data instead of emotion and hopes, the people here touting how wonderful these Ohmmu (funny, they all call them by brand name instead of the type of battery... no shilling, right?) batteries are are either trying to convince themselves that they made a good purchase (this is possible, but I doubt it) based on bad/limited information or they're shilling for the company for some sort of kick back behind the scenes selling snake oil. I tend to follow the money.

most people only explain crap once....you must not be a very good communicator.......

 

[Noodles]

Let me take your 1st world problems off of your hands

let me struggle with this issue

 

[PhilDavid]

Pro tips for connecting with someone at the SC -
1. Just reply to the text messages about your appointment and they will reply back.
2. When you call, choose the option that you want to speak to someone about a car already in service and you’ll be connected to the service desk and they are happy to talk about whatever it is.

Also if you need an earlier appt for some reason just tell them and they will usually work you in.

If you were a real pro, you'd know...

1. They only reply to text messages they feel like replying to. Even when they do reply, they are not always helpful. You may only get one text message repose per day so it might take 2-3 days to reach the outcome of a 30 second phone call. They once kept my car for 5 days before they even did any work and they ignored all my requests for an update during that time.

2. When you select the option for a car in service, you get to leave a voicemail message. They may or may not call you back based on how they feel like. The whole communication aspect demonstrates borderline contempt for customers.

Basically it is a crap shoot and you may end up with marginal or miserable service. They don;t care as long as they can sell new cars and for now they have the best product with no one else close so we are screwed.

I hope and pray other manufacturers will step up their game so we can have at least some hope of reasonable customer care/service.

How I wish our local Mercedes dealer would start offering Tesla service. When we had a Mercedes, I could talk to my service advisor any time I want to or he will prompt return my email or voicemail. Loaner cars were always available. When I needed service they always approached it from the perspective of "When would be be convenient for you to bring you car in?" After the service visit, I'd receive a survey and if I had any issues, the Service Manager would reach out to me to ask what they can do better. Basically the opposite of Tesla service. Never knew how good I had it with dealer service until I bought my Tesla.

 

[ucmndd]

If you were a real pro, you'd know...

1. They only reply to text messages they feel like replying to. Even when they do reply, they are not always helpful. They once kept my car for 5 days before they even did any work and they ignored all my requests for an update during that time.
2. When you select the option for a car in service, you get to leave a voicemail message. They may or may not call you back based on how they feel like.

I don't disagree other than to say this is highly variable from location to location. In the last 6 months I've had 100% success rate with getting a live person on the phone and receiving timely responses to texts. The busier SCs seem to be more problematic, which I suppose you could predict. Mine, which is technically a "lite" service center that appears to operate as a satellite office of another one a few hours away, has been really good.

 

[PhilDavid]

I don't disagree other than to say this is highly variable from location to location. In the last 6 months I've had 100% success rate with getting a live person on the phone and receiving timely responses to texts. The busier SCs seem to be more problematic, which I suppose you could predict. Mine, which is technically a "lite" service center that appears to operate as a satellite office of another one a few hours away, has been really good.

I guess that's the problem. There are no standards and no one who can do anything about it is in charge. Seems some of you are lucky to be served by a Service Center that cares. Rest of us are %^*%ed.

I travel between Philly and the DC area often and every time I needed service it has been a magnitude worse than going for a dental visit. I'm not able to reach human being when needed and they don't reply to text messages and rarely helpful when they do. The entire service model around where I live and travel seems based on a very perverse condescending attitude towards customers.

At least the people at the dental office answer the phone and the outcome is more predictable and there is some level of compassion in the service I receive.

Maybe our dentist can run the Service centers? Would be a huge improvement.

 

[1windy]

It seems when compared to Benz which I agree is stellar, the difference is someone owns the place and it is unacceptable for someone to act the way Tesla people do. They would get s*** canned quickly.

 

[r1200gs4ok]

Maybe you should use the search function, see the lengthy conversation that occurred with several forum users across several threads and dozens of posts then ask yourself if you'd like to copy/paste every single post and edit for redundancy among other things and then craft it all so it makes sense for someone reading for the first time including other user's posts that inspired each post as well as other user's posts in response to said post.

While I'm at it, want me to just copy/paste ever post ever in this forum into this thread? Should save you from having to click that little "search" button and type in whatever topic you're interested in. Sounds like a real time saver to me. /sarcasm

I posted to let anyone who actually cared know that the topic is under debate and lots of information existed for anyone who cared enough to invest the time to learn more. Some people still enjoy learning to fish rather than being spoon fed.

well since you are so organized, why didn't you just give the guy the link and you can save your time trying to explain why you did what you did

 

[ArizonaP85]

Ranting. ROFL And people wonder why I don't take the time to fully explain crap 37 times.

A couple of quick take-aways from your post....

1) you say that OEM batteries last anywhere between "a few months and 4.5 years" and yet you arbitrarily choose to replace yours at the 4-year mark regardless of how it tests. You don't see why someone might question this decision? Again, you're welcome to do whatever you want with your car and your money but coming on here acting like you're doing something of great value is potentially misleading others with the same type of misinformation these Ohmmmu clowns are trying to cram down people's throats to sell them snake oil.

2) You link to "facts" to back up your case and yet there is ZERO data about EVs, Tesla specifically. Do you understand how the 12v battery demands on an ICE are entirely different than those of an EV? Take the time to educate yourself on those differences and you will see why I'm 100% there is zero gain to be had from these types of batteries in these cars.

3) The Tesla warranty for replacement isn't in question here because it is the standard by which we're comparing aftermarket parts. That said, Tesla warranties the 12v battery for the duration of the 4-yr/50k miles warranty so they must source parts that at least meet that expectation otherwise they're going to be out millions replacing parts for free. You'd agree that that would be pretty foolish of ANY car company, right? If an OEM battery is known to last 5 years give or a take a year (minus a few outliers on either side of the spectrum) then simple math tells us that an aftermarket option would have to last twice as long to justify the price tag being 2x higher. That's 8-10 years just to BREAK EVEN on your investment. If the manufacturer isn't willing to back their product for that time period why would you come to the conclusion that this is somehow going to save you money? The fact of the matter is that the industry standard for a LiFePO4 battery is about 5-7 years of service life. About the same as the Tesla OEM battery that we've all seen first-hand going back to 2012 now. In fact, I would attest that if you plan to replace your battery every 4-years regardless, wouldn't it make sense to use the battery that costs half as much that you've already had luck getting beyond 4-years with? Do you really plan to push that Ohmmu battery to 8-10 years to recoup any of your investment? Not much of what you've said makes sense.

So, based on facts and data instead of emotion and hopes, the people here touting how wonderful these Ohmmu (funny, they all call them by brand name instead of the type of battery... no shilling, right?) batteries are are either trying to convince themselves that they made a good purchase (this is possible, but I doubt it) based on bad/limited information or they're shilling for the company for some sort of kick back behind the scenes selling snake oil. I tend to follow the money.

Why does anyone talking about longer-lasting Lithium 12V batteries say “Ohmmu”? Because they are the ONLY one! Why do you see “shilling” boogeymen under every bed? Others have pointed you to studies on lithium performance and life yet you keep repeating “no data” and “fake news.” We see enough discounting of science and facts on the news, thank you very much.
But relevant to TMC, was Elon “selling snake oil” when he first advertised the Model S with an 8 year battery warranty?!? He didn’t have 8 years of data just like Ohmmu doesn’t. You set an impossible standard for any new technology or product to meet: that it have a whole lifetime of test data before it could be sold ... so everything would be a generation out of date. Great for American competitiveness in world markets!
Even if everyone waited, you seem so angry that I doubt a lifespan of data would satisfy you; you’d just come up with another insult. Lighten up. I’m glad that you haven’t had a 12V battery failure but you must admit that you’ve changed cars pretty frequently (5 cars in 2 or 3 years?), while folks who keep our cars longer, and especially in warmer climates with shorter lead battery life, we value reliability differently and are happy with lithium 12V batteries.

 

[Ostrichsak]

Why does anyone talking about longer-lasting Lithium 12V batteries say “Ohmmu”? Because they are the ONLY one! Why do you see “shilling” boogeymen under every bed? Others have pointed you to studies on lithium performance and life yet you keep repeating “no data” and “fake news.” We see enough discounting of science and facts on the news, thank you very much.
But relevant to TMC, was Elon “selling snake oil” when he first advertised the Model S with an 8 year battery warranty?!? He didn’t have 8 years of data just like Ohmmu doesn’t. You set an impossible standard for any new technology or product to meet: that it have a whole lifetime of test data before it could be sold ... so everything would be a generation out of date. Great for American competitiveness in world markets!
Even if everyone waited, you seem so angry that I doubt a lifespan of data would satisfy you; you’d just come up with another insult. Lighten up. I’m glad that you haven’t had a 12V battery failure but you must admit that you’ve changed cars pretty frequently (5 cars in 2 or 3 years?), while folks who keep our cars longer, and especially in warmer climates with shorter lead battery life, we value reliability differently and are happy with lithium 12V batteries.

I'm not discounting science. Nice try though. I'm actually USING science to refute your complete lack of scientific approach to your wild claims of grandeur. Scientific method doesn't support anything you've said or that has been said about/by Ohmmu and therein lies the problem.

As to the Elon "selling snake oil" that's hilarious! It's exactly the opposite situation where engineering used science to hypothesize a working theory that the batteries should last at least 8-years. Without proof, nobody would adopt this via their financial support. So to give people peace of mind that supported their their they added an 8-year warranty. In your scenario Ohmmu is actually doing the exact opposite by claiming that their battery will last two times longer than the current standard without a warranty to support such claims. You keep claiming "reliability" and how much you care about it yet your solution is a device that, not only doesn't have any proof of 8-10 years of life to warranty the 2x price tag but won't even warranty their product for that long to help alleviate any concerns others may have due to the complete lack of scientific proof of said claims to reliability improvements.

So, I'll use your analogy to ask you; if Elon had only a 4-year warranty on their battery packs like the rest of the car when they came out... would you have bought a $100k+ Model S with a $20k+ battery pack without any data (like we have now) to prove that it would last any longer? Of course not. Very few people alive would assume that financial risk and if they did it would be 100% out of supporting a cause they believe it and are in a financial position to love almost all of that money w/o it affecting their world. But you want me to pay 2x more for a battery that the manufacturer doesn't even believe will last longer than the current standard enough to put a longer warranty on it? Pass. Yet this is exactly the snake oil they're trying to sell to trusting Tesla owners.

I like how you keep bringing up the fact that I've owned 5 cars as a negative. Another nice try. This give me more of a sample size of cars that are 3-6 years old than the average owner to draw first hand experience from. You're trying to make it seem like I'm shady because I've owned so many vehicles an this somehow disproves what I've said. You're dancing dangerously on the verge of personal attacks with the implied insinuations so let's keep this to the topic at hand no matter how difficult it is for you to stick to facts with which to contest my facts.


Getting back on subject: the 12v battery in a Tesla is NOTHING like a 12v battery in an ICE car that requires massive amounts of amperage draw in instantaneous bursts to turn large, higher compression ICE engines over in all temperatures. In an ICE car, once the battery has turned over the engine to get it running the alternator does the lion's share of the 12v lifting once the car is running. It runs off of a belt powered by the engine to run the 12v system and charge the battery back up for the next start. The tasks required after the engine is running are of such linear and constant nature that the battery isn't used much beyond starting the car. In a Tesla, there is no alternator. The battery does this light lifting of powering headlights, turn signals, horn, stereo, etc. The "demands" of the battery are of far less consequence in terms of amperage draw. This means that the failure of a 12v battery in a Tesla is far more linear and easier to predict the failure of. It's not an "instant" failure like in an ICE car where the demands are such that it MUST meet a specific threshold (often referred to as "Cold Cranking Amps" or CCA for marketing/comparison) or it fails. In a Tesla these CCA #'s are next to irrelevant. The cars just don't need that kind of amperage and a slow, steady trickle of amps is all the 12v battery is used for. This causes the voltage to slowly degrade over time which is easy to monitor and also easy to predict. This is why the Tesla gives you an warning that usually give the user weeks if not months of advance warning before anything every truly fails due to the battery dipping below a critical level of voltage. This is how a Tesla works. There are outliers and they are rare but it's a complete 180 from an ICE vehicle which is why selling "snake oil" 12v batteries in the way Ohmmu does is disingenuous. Even if they did last 2x longer (which they don't) to justify the price tag they're entirely unnecessary for this application.

 

[brec]

Here's what I know:
My original 12V was replaced after three years.
My second 12V was replaced after one year minus one day.
The Ohmmu 12V for Model S is warranted for four years.
What I think:
At $419, Ohmmu is not a slam dunk, but—especially when facing an out-of-warranty replacement of a Tesla 12V—it's a feasible choice, depending on risk preferences.

 

[PhilDavid]

Here's what I know:
My original 12V was replaced after three years.
My second 12V was replaced after one year minus one day.
The Ohmmu 12V for Model S is warranted for four years.
What I think:
At $419, Ohmmu is not a slam dunk, but—especially when facing an out-of-warranty replacement of a Tesla 12V—it's a feasible choice, depending on risk preferences.

I think the Ohmmu battery is more for peace of mind than cost savings. At least if I get one, that would be my justification.

 

[demundus]

I think the Ohmmu battery is more for peace of mind than cost savings. At least if I get one, that would be my justification.

The major thing with the ohmmu battery is that Tesla's BMS was not designed to support it, and considering the car doesn't have a traditional alternator, but contactors that sense voltage and spring into action, I wouldn't want to try to one-up the tesla system, already knowing that the 12v battery is a touchy subject.

 

[ngng]

Does anybody know:
- approx amp draw of "common" accessories
- approx amps supplied by DC charger when car is being used?

 

[Snowstorm]

Why does Tesla even need a 12V battery? How come it can’t just step down convert from the HV battery? Won’t that be a lot easier than having 2 independent points of failure?

 

[aerodyne]

Does anybody know:
- approx amp draw of "common" accessories
- approx amps supplied by DC charger when car is being used?

Approx 10-20 amps

It varies of course on what is being used. When the car is awake, and charging, pumps running at 20 ish percent, about 10 Amps

 

[Brass Guy]

Why does Tesla even need a 12V battery? How come it can’t just step down convert from the HV battery? Won’t that be a lot easier than having 2 independent points of failure?

The high voltage battery needs to be disconnected in certain conditions, though I'm not certain of the regulations. If there were no other energy source, there'd be no way to wake up the car. The 12v battery powers the computers and wireless systems when the main contactors are open. It's the 12v battery power that closes the contactors, then the main battery powers a DC-DC 12v converter to power 12v systems and recharge the 12v battery.

I've read that Model 3 style main battery has the DC-DC (12v) converter built in, so it doesn't need a 12v battery nor external DC-DC converter. High voltage gets disconnected, 12v still flows.

 

[aerodyne]

Of all the problems that a Tesla might have, a failing 12v must be the easiest fix.

And, it not like any_other_car never has a similar problem.

 

[Brass Guy]

You could say a DC-DC failure is comparable to an alternator failure in an ICE. In Model 3 however, it means working on (or replacing?) the main battery.

 

[ucmndd]

I think the Ohmmu battery is more for peace of mind than cost savings. At least if I get one, that would be my justification.

What “peace of mind” is provided by a non-OEM part that may or may not cause problems with any random software update?