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19" and 21" Tire Wear (informal) Survey

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Is it just me, or why isn't this becoming a bigger deal--and more importantly, why isn't Tesla addressing it!

Tesla has a habit of not talking about improvements/fixes until they have a solution.

Folks with 21" tires are getting a wide variety of mileage out of them. Because the camber is non-adjustable it's likely the problem is something else (toe being the smoking gun). Camber isn't considered a wearing alignment angle, however, camber will amplify the affect of other angles being out.

21" inch tires are ultra-high performance tires--you won't get 40K out them on any vehicle.
 
Is it just me, or why isn't this becoming a bigger deal--and more importantly, why isn't Tesla addressing it!

There is NO way that any tire should be replaced (I'll take 21" as example) after 5K-7.5K miles. I've owned 3 911's and the lowest mileage I had to change those high performance tires was around 15K. Why are we putting up with this?

I'm putting my order on hold for now, as this shows me Tesla is not paying attention to these issues.

And BTW the answer isn't "put on 19' they are better". If they cannot support 21" tires, then don't sell them on your vehicles.

With the other issues I've seen thus far (which I can ignore most) with S, I'm not going to buy tires ever 5K miles when there is no need.

Nobody needs 21" tires. Just because they provide a factory 21" option doesn't mean you have to get them. They are 100% impractical anyway. If you don't want to deal with it then get 19" tires. Otherwise, your loss on missing out enjoying the greatest car in the world.
 
Nobody needs 21" tires. Just because they provide a factory 21" option doesn't mean you have to get them. They are 100% impractical anyway. If you don't want to deal with it then get 19" tires. Otherwise, your loss on missing out enjoying the greatest car in the world.

Nobody needs a Tesla, but they buy it. No different with 21" tires, but they look 100x better to me than 19", especially coming from sports cars (Porsche).

Point is, Tesla sells them, they are an option, they should work right--period.
 
I have done a long over due update to the data. It is difficult to make much sense of it in its current form but there are a significant number of high wear cases and multiple cases where toe has been out significantly.


I've spent some time looking at Tesla's published alignment specifications and believe I have a better understanding of the trade offs they made to support air suspension. You can find the specs (Telsa SB-13-34-003) here - http://craigfroehle.com/posted/ModelS_Alignment.pdf


Remove the camber and the tire sits flatter. Sure, bad toe settings will still cause wear even with less camber but it will not be directed only on the inside shoulder of the tire. We also know Tesla put the camber in the rear for a reason.


From the above Service Bulletin we can see that the standard suspension rides 14mm higher than the air suspension in the rear. The coil suspension's acceptable camber range in the rear is -1.2 to -1.9 where the air suspension is -1.4 to -2.1. Both cars use the exact same suspension components and thus the difference in specification between the two is purely a function of camber gain (see below explanation).


What I take from this is that -1.2 degrees of rear camber is perfectly within specification and thus perfectly safe for MS. Lowering the car should improve safety thus an air suspended car lowered at highway speeds with -1.2 degrees of camber should be safe.


I know reducing my rear camber from -2.2 in standard ride height to -1.2 by changing the upper links was safe. However, my knowing it does not make it so. After reviewing Tesla's specifications, I believe they agree with my assessment.




Camber Gain
This term is used to describe changes in camber as a wheel moves up and down. Modern suspensions are designed such that the pivot arm for the top of the upright (assembly that the wheel bolts to) is shorter than the lower arm. As the upright moves up with respect to the car (car lowering) the upper arm with its shorter radius pulls the top of the upright in more than the longer lower arm. The net result is that the top of the tire tilts inward as the tire travels up in the wheel well. This inward movement is an increase in negative camber thus the term camber gain.
 

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    Camber Curve Graphic.JPG
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Paging Odenator, you have a call on line 7.

Buzzbuzz and I took a look at Odenator's tires today. He is NOT due for replacement yet. He's had 1 rotation at the annual (12.5k). How many miles does he have on them? 23,000

I replaced my first set at 8,500 miles. YMMV, calm down.
 
This is great news if they really do!

For big engineering issues, so far, Tesla has shown they address them at some point. For things like vanity mirrors and lights while they say they are working on them they haven't gotten around to it yet. If there is an issue like this I think you can be confident they will address it. That said get the 19" rims if you don't want to deal with changing tires once a year.
 
22,000 miles with stock 19" goodyears. Just went out and measured. 7.5-8.0 on the fronts, and 6.5-7.0 on the rears. They are wearing pretty good. I rotated at 6500 and have yet to rotate again. I'll probably rotate again around 25,000 miles. at that point the rears should be down to about 6.0.
 
YBD,
You have a low ViN so how did you end up with 19s on a P? My first P (4288) came with 21s.

In short, I gave up the free 21s downgraded to 19s.

I have never owned low profile tires before. I had done a bit of research on them before I finalized. The decision was simplistically easy to make. The hardest part in my head though was clicking the button to "give up a free $3500 option". It felt as if I was throwing $3500 away. However, not being short-sighted this is actually not true whatsoever. By downgrading for free and giving up $3500 up front, I am actually saving myself 10s of thousands of dollars throughout the lifetime of the vehicle (actually, probably even a hell of a lot more than that).

First, pretty much every online source I read said that low profile tires wear at least twice as fast as non low-profile tires. Sometimes even 3-4x faster. That was point 1.

Point 2, was that they are *very* prone to road damage. In these parts of the armpit of America, roads aren't really maintained. It's not uncommon to come up upon giant potholes and road hazards several times on a daily basis. One small mistake of not paying attention and you'll have a blowout. I have seen this happen on the road with other vehicles as I pass by. Obviously this would make the rims susceptible to damage and cracking too.

The third point is as simple as they suck in rainy and winter weather. Previously owning a `97 Camaro RS, which was the only other RWD car I had ever owned (the other two were AWD Murano and AWD Range Rover Evoque), I know that in rainy weather and winter around these parts I need as much traction as possible. I have fishtailed dozens of times in that Camaro. None of them ever ended up in any accident. One time was a complete 360 in the middle of an intersection (I was stopped at a red light and it turned green and I was the first vehicle turning left, so fortunately there was absolutely no traffic in the intersection), and the other major time was on an off ramp and it took me on up over the curb. Surprisingly no damage. The last major incident was as simple as losing traction in snow going less than 25 mph. I *very slowly* slid into a guard rail. I was going so slow it was like slow motion. I knew I was going to hit and there was nothing I could do about it. Only minor fender damage. Never had any traction issues with the Murano or Range Rover (although both of them has serious safety issues where it would cut out your gas pedal while you were driving it and you have 0 acceleration...but that's another story for another day).

Anywho, putting all 3 of those major points together, I am also a high mileage driver. Anywhere from 40-60k a year. So it's very easy to come to the conclusion that 19s are the way to go around here. I did not want to be spending $1500 for new sets of tires every other month. Very glad I made that decision considering the 21s on the Tesla seem to only be lasting 5-10k for people. I picked my car up in March and if I had the 21s I'd probably already be on my 4th set by now. I am not rich ;) Can't afford that kind of maintenance!
 
YBD,
You have a low ViN so how did you end up with 19s on a P? My first P (4288) came with 21s.

OT moment here, but WOW!
You've got 3 Model S'?!

Any fit and finish differences you're noticing?

EDIT: @YobigD, good reasons for the 19's. My original choice for the 21's was mostly for the wheel design. Now that there are a couple of fan designs in 19 form, I'll likely be adding these (swapping) in the next month or two.
 
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In short, I gave up the free 21s downgraded to 19s.

I have never owned low profile tires before. I had done a bit of research on them before I finalized. The decision was simplistically easy to make. The hardest part in my head though was clicking the button to "give up a free $3500 option". It felt as if I was throwing $3500 away. However, not being short-sighted this is actually not true whatsoever. By downgrading for free and giving up $3500 up front, I am actually saving myself 10s of thousands of dollars throughout the lifetime of the vehicle (actually, probably even a hell of a lot more than that).

First, pretty much every online source I read said that low profile tires wear at least twice as fast as non low-profile tires. Sometimes even 3-4x faster. That was point 1.

Point 2, was that they are *very* prone to road damage. In these parts of the armpit of America, roads aren't really maintained. It's not uncommon to come up upon giant potholes and road hazards several times on a daily basis. One small mistake of not paying attention and you'll have a blowout. I have seen this happen on the road with other vehicles as I pass by. Obviously this would make the rims susceptible to damage and cracking too.

The third point is as simple as they suck in rainy and winter weather. Previously owning a `97 Camaro RS, which was the only other RWD car I had ever owned (the other two were AWD Murano and AWD Range Rover Evoque), I know that in rainy weather and winter around these parts I need as much traction as possible. I have fishtailed dozens of times in that Camaro. None of them ever ended up in any accident. One time was a complete 360 in the middle of an intersection (I was stopped at a red light and it turned green and I was the first vehicle turning left, so fortunately there was absolutely no traffic in the intersection), and the other major time was on an off ramp and it took me on up over the curb. Surprisingly no damage. The last major incident was as simple as losing traction in snow going less than 25 mph. I *very slowly* slid into a guard rail. I was going so slow it was like slow motion. I knew I was going to hit and there was nothing I could do about it. Only minor fender damage. Never had any traction issues with the Murano or Range Rover (although both of them has serious safety issues where it would cut out your gas pedal while you were driving it and you have 0 acceleration...but that's another story for another day).

Anywho, putting all 3 of those major points together, I am also a high mileage driver. Anywhere from 40-60k a year. So it's very easy to come to the conclusion that 19s are the way to go around here. I did not want to be spending $1500 for new sets of tires every other month. Very glad I made that decision considering the 21s on the Tesla seem to only be lasting 5-10k for people. I picked my car up in March and if I had the 21s I'd probably already be on my 4th set by now. I am not rich ;) Can't afford that kind of maintenance!

You could have sold the 21" rims and then bought the 19" rims and made maybe $1,000 or more but yes, 21" rims don't make financial sense.
 
They certainly don't for someone who drives as much as this poster.

However, for 'normal' 10-12K miles per year, I see no problem. Plus they make the car look sooooooooooo good :biggrin:

I agree. Love the look but even if you only drive 12,000 miles a year that's 2-3 times you'll change tires compared to all season tires and many aren't willing to accept that.
 
I agree. Love the look but even if you only drive 12,000 miles a year that's 2-3 times you'll change tires compared to all season tires and many aren't willing to accept that.

See this is where it gets confusing. Some say only 5k miles, other 12K miles, other 20K miles on 21" (BTW--5K is NOT acceptable in my book). I think changing tires every year is reasonable at 12K miles (again in weighing options of having 19").

The awesome part about the Tesla, they give us the choice, and either way the S is just smoking hot inside and out (just hotter with 21"---LOL!! :biggrin:)
 
5,000 is very low so maybe something wrong with the setup of the alignment. A lot of it depends on driving style and other factors. Jerry could answer this better though. It looks like most are getting around 12,000 +/- 3,000 miles (unscientific observation). Look at Tirerack.com to get some idea but that is on many different cars with different torque, weight...etc

Has anyone who had to get tires replaced at 5,000 miles or so had their alignment checked and had better results with the second set?
 
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