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2017 Investor Roundtable:General Discussion

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According to this arcticle from 2013 Porsche´s gross margin used to be 50%. No idea how much is hat changed, but likely it is still higher then Tesla´s.

As someone previously posted, gross margins and operating margins should be compared. When you look at traditional autos, including Porsche, they have a lot of advertising expenses which Tesla does not. Tesla is also eating a lot of Supercharging costs that it won't be in the future, which would also contribute to operating margins. Lastly, Tesla is both the manufacturer and the dealership in one, where the goal is to break even on service but selling guess right to operational margins. At the end of the day, Porsche may have better GM but won't have better operational margins and is Tesla can power Supercharging with solar, it will actually contribute to increasing operational margins by a huge amount while still providing Tesla owners with rates competitive with what they get at home.
 
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You don't seem to know much about Model S/X buyers. Losing a 7,500 tax credit when you are buying a 100K car won't slow down the majority of S/X buyers. The majority of these high income buyers aren't going to scrimp on options they really want just to offset a credit they can easily live without. The rest of your post was just extrapolating from your unsupported assumptions that all buyers will eliminate those options which yield largest amount of gross profits. Just more FUD 'profits will never come' hysteria.


Really so when EV monetary benefits went away in other places, S/X purchases were the same? No.

And Model 3 owners will be more price sensitive... in 2018 buyers are in order of location, reservation order, and battery size. Assuming all those folks still buy a car, less will order autopilot w/o EV credit. How many less is of course hard to estimate.

If you simply blow off that that the credit will have any effect on Tesla cash flow, you aren't appearing thoughtful. Maybe it's small, but at least compute some estimates...
 
Really so when EV monetary benefits went away in other places, S/X purchases were the same? No.

And Model 3 owners will be more price sensitive... in 2018 buyers are in order of location, reservation order, and battery size. Assuming all those folks still buy a car, less will order autopilot w/o EV credit. How many less is of course hard to estimate.

If you simply blow off that that the credit will have any effect on Tesla cash flow, you aren't appearing thoughtful. Maybe it's small, but at least compute some estimates...

You tend to see a Spike as they expire when sales get pulled forward then a show build back to normal levels over the next few quarters. Would be surprised if Tesla did not reverse their stance on S/X at 2 shifts vs 3 shifts to capitalize this quarter, though might be to late to alter that plan for to parts and other supply chain constraints.
 
Really so when EV monetary benefits went away in other places, S/X purchases were the same? No.

And Model 3 owners will be more price sensitive... in 2018 buyers are in order of location, reservation order, and battery size. Assuming all those folks still buy a car, less will order autopilot w/o EV credit. How many less is of course hard to estimate.

If you simply blow off that that the credit will have any effect on Tesla cash flow, you aren't appearing thoughtful. Maybe it's small, but at least compute some estimates...

1. Your original post only references S/X not Model 3.
2. I never said or implied losing tax credit would have NO effect on Tesla. My point was your 'extrapolations' that losing tax credits would do massive damage to profitability is poorly supported. You asserted: "That might be too conservative, it might be that the average purchase across all vehicles loses 1/2 of the rebate, Tesla will lose almost 1 BILLION dollars of profit in 2018. How in the heck will that not matter to their bottom line, need to raise capital, valuation, etc...?"
3. Some portion of prospective M3 buyers will be more price sensitive and others not much or not at all. I've seen it reported here that reservations are up to 6 - 700,000. That is before M3 can be seen at Tesla galleries or in neighbors driveways. If 10% of reservation holders don't wind up buying a M3 that leaves 90% who will. No one has hard figures based on knowing annual income of all M3 reservation holders. My WAG is most are well into the upper middle class. EV enthusiasts with that income level are likely to buy M3s configured in the 45 - 55K range.
4. Some % of M3 reservation holders could afford to buy a S/X but don't mind waiting until M3 is available with the options they must have.
I am in that group. The MS is a dream. I've had them as loaners several times. However I can wait for M3 since it's size is better for my needs and IMO M3 buyers will be getting 2/3 or more of an MS for 1/2 the cost. Quite the good deal.
5. You conclude "Maybe it's small, but at least compute some estimates...".
That's quite a change from "Tesla will lose almost 1 BILLION dollars of profit". Given the lack of hard data on M3 reservation holders incomes and determination to get M3 with some available options, I think estimating the effect as small is reasonable. More so than concluding it will keep Tesla from becoming profitable sometime in 2018.
 
A regional German newspaper reports that the guys from Grohman are helping out at the Gigafactory, they say the production lines from an external supplier don't work as they should, Grohman guys in Nevada go so far and say it's a wreckage or a heap of rubble.

This is why you don't pretend to start production before building out the production systems. Now Tesla needs to run some cars each month to pretend to be in production while simultaneously building significant parts of the process.

I predict Musk next sets up a campsite in the superstructure of the new vertical storage building in Fremont.
 
Would be surprised if Tesla did not reverse their stance on S/X at 2 shifts vs 3 shifts to capitalize this quarter

They have already set their Q4 strategy when eliminating third shift. The rational conclusion is that they see some weakness in S/X demand. In particular they already know a lot about the Q4 S/X queue for export.
 
1. Your original post only references S/X not Model 3.
2. I never said or implied losing tax credit would have NO effect on Tesla. My point was your 'extrapolations' that losing tax credits would do massive damage to profitability is poorly supported. You asserted: "That might be too conservative, it might be that the average purchase across all vehicles loses 1/2 of the rebate, Tesla will lose almost 1 BILLION dollars of profit in 2018. How in the heck will that not matter to their bottom line, need to raise capital, valuation, etc...?"
3. Some portion of prospective M3 buyers will be more price sensitive and others not much or not at all. I've seen it reported here that reservations are up to 6 - 700,000. That is before M3 can be seen at Tesla galleries or in neighbors driveways. If 10% of reservation holders don't wind up buying a M3 that leaves 90% who will. No one has hard figures based on knowing annual income of all M3 reservation holders. My WAG is most are well into the upper middle class. EV enthusiasts with that income level are likely to buy M3s configured in the 45 - 55K range.
4. Some % of M3 reservation holders could afford to buy a S/X but don't mind waiting until M3 is available with the options they must have.
I am in that group. The MS is a dream. I've had them as loaners several times. However I can wait for M3 since it's size is better for my needs and IMO M3 buyers will be getting 2/3 or more of an MS for 1/2 the cost. Quite the good deal.
5. You conclude "Maybe it's small, but at least compute some estimates...".
That's quite a change from "Tesla will lose almost 1 BILLION dollars of profit". Given the lack of hard data on M3 reservation holders incomes and determination to get M3 with some available options, I think estimating the effect as small is reasonable. More so than concluding it will keep Tesla from becoming profitable sometime in 2018.

M3 already very competitive without tax breaks. Loss of credits hurts competitors more, and competitors are already in a troubling spot of declining margins and market share to Tesla with the need to invest billions or hundreds of billions only to lose market share and profits to canabolizing their own profitable brands. Also more Zev credits as competitors can't sell EVs must buy more credits. Zev credits actually go directly to Tesla where fed credits do not so the failing ICEv automakers will continue to fund Tesla's growth for a long time.

Model S/X had already had a 5k price drop and more value added to the base, this will only continue as the products mature. Tesla has many demand levers, including losing tax credits and free Supercharging.
 
I LOLed at the misleading depiction of a robot being operated by hand. Next time I will ask for your permission before I LOL.

You said : "how can you even operate a Kuka by hand" Something which is perfectly possible and done routinely. It may indeed be better to ask those in the know first before you LOL about something you clearly know nothing about.
 
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A regional German newspaper reports that the guys from Grohman are helping out at the Gigafactory, they say the production lines from an external supplier don't work as they should, Grohman guys in Nevada go so far and say it's a wreckage or a heap of rubble.

Grohman acquisition already delivering more value for Tesla than Solarcity after just a few months...
 
Well, given the news of the past few days, I want to comment on where I see things are now and how I think things may play out in the next couple of months. This is a synthesis of both the official comments from Tesla as well as a number of news stories and commentators.

My view is that Tesla tried to ramp up in September as expected... and ran into battery weld problems. As they diagnosed the issue, they realized the zone 1 and 2 automated production line wasn’t working right and after some diagnosis, realized it was total crap. Tesla Grohmann people had some choice words in German. All vehicles delivered this far have manually built battery packs. Hence the “hand built” commentary as reported by a number of news outlets. The quality of the Model 3’s we’ve seen thus far don’t jive with hand welded body in white. But hand built battery modules... sure, we can’t see that and clearly that is what is going on. There was an electrek article on the hand building of the packs in the early summer. I suspect the Panasonic comments about production starting soon have to do with the first fix that Musk was talking about, but didn’t clearly delineate. They are expanding the hand building of the first two zones of the battery module assembly, including conscripting some Panasonic employees to do so... hence the complaint by an Electrek commentator with very specific info.

The real fix is fix #2, where Tesla’s “A” team of advanced automation folks including ones from Germany are redesigning zone #1 and #2 but that will take some more time. From Musk’s comments, I think they are expecting end of this month or beginning of December for that fix to be operational. If it works, they are able to make Dec = Oct and get possibly multi-thousands/week run rate. If not, they still have the production rate of fix #1.

So how fast is fix #1? Don’t know, but it has to be fast enough for it to be worth doing. WAG is that it is between 200 and 500/week, enough to get the rest of the production up and running at the initial clip so that Dec = Sept. likely this is at high cost, including a really high reject rate, but still, the cost of doing nothing is high too.

We have seen a steady stream of Model 3’s trickle out to delivery. I assume they restarted manual battery pack production at the initial slow rate once they figured out the automated line was borked. The VIN numbers will increase just based on that. The lull we saw was the period when they weren’t building any packs that pass QA/QC at all (or exceedingly few) with the automated line.

So let’s say through October they built and delivered about 600 Model 3’s. Let’s say they can build 50/week until fix #1 is in place in another week and go to 200/week, then 350/week. That’s 650 for November. 400/week in first week of December. Then fix #2 goes into place by 2nd week. So we hit 600/week by then, then 1,000, then 1,500. Production would then be 3,500 for December, for a total of 4,750. Seems plausible to me but with huge error bars. Could be 2,000 for 2017, could be over 5,000.

As for the market, well, we will likely get over exuberant once production does seem to get going somewhat. If fix #2 does seem to be likely, the market is likely to front run it. Likely we will be then disappointed by the Jan delivery realities, but if fix #2 is real by then, it won’t matter. If not, fix #1 won’t satisfy the market for long. My assumption is also that fix #2 is coming soon enough to not try to do major steps like shift to non-LR packs only in order to stretch out battery modules to vehicle ratio. The non-LR still has to go through EPA approvals, so maybe if fix #2 is later, they can do that for January.
 
Well, given the news of the past few days, I want to comment on where I see things are now and how I think things may play out in the next couple of months. This is a synthesis of both the official comments from Tesla as well as a number of news stories and commentators.

My view is that Tesla tried to ramp up in September as expected... and ran into battery weld problems. As they diagnosed the issue, they realized the zone 1 and 2 automated production line wasn’t working right and after some diagnosis, realized it was total crap. Tesla Grohmann people had some choice words in German. All vehicles delivered this far have manually built battery packs. Hence the “hand built” commentary as reported by a number of news outlets. The quality of the Model 3’s we’ve seen thus far don’t jive with hand welded body in white. But hand built battery modules... sure, we can’t see that and clearly that is what is going on. There was an electrek article on the hand building of the packs in the early summer. I suspect the Panasonic comments about production starting soon have to do with the first fix that Musk was talking about, but didn’t clearly delineate. They are expanding the hand building of the first two zones of the battery module assembly, including conscripting some Panasonic employees to do so... hence the complaint by an Electrek commentator with very specific info.

The real fix is fix #2, where Tesla’s “A” team of advanced automation folks including ones from Germany are redesigning zone #1 and #2 but that will take some more time. From Musk’s comments, I think they are expecting end of this month or beginning of December for that fix to be operational. If it works, they are able to make Dec = Oct and get possibly multi-thousands/week run rate. If not, they still have the production rate of fix #1.

So how fast is fix #1? Don’t know, but it has to be fast enough for it to be worth doing. WAG is that it is between 200 and 500/week, enough to get the rest of the production up and running at the initial clip so that Dec = Sept. likely this is at high cost, including a really high reject rate, but still, the cost of doing nothing is high too.

We have seen a steady stream of Model 3’s trickle out to delivery. I assume they restarted manual battery pack production at the initial slow rate once they figured out the automated line was borked. The VIN numbers will increase just based on that. The lull we saw was the period when they weren’t building any packs that pass QA/QC at all (or exceedingly few) with the automated line.

So let’s say through October they built and delivered about 600 Model 3’s. Let’s say they can build 50/week until fix #1 is in place in another week and go to 200/week, then 350/week. That’s 650 for November. 400/week in first week of December. Then fix #2 goes into place by 2nd week. So we hit 600/week by then, then 1,000, then 1,500. Production would then be 3,500 for December, for a total of 4,750. Seems plausible to me but with huge error bars. Could be 2,000 for 2017, could be over 5,000.

As for the market, well, we will likely get over exuberant once production does seem to get going somewhat. If fix #2 does seem to be likely, the market is likely to front run it. Likely we will be then disappointed by the Jan delivery realities, but if fix #2 is real by then, it won’t matter. If not, fix #1 won’t satisfy the market for long. My assumption is also that fix #2 is coming soon enough to not try to do major steps like shift to non-LR packs only in order to stretch out battery modules to vehicle ratio. The non-LR still has to go through EPA approvals, so maybe if fix #2 is later, they can do that for January.
Great post.
I haven't seen enough information to be able to conclude that the SR pack would be easier/faster to build vs LR, did anyone? Cells do not seem to be a bottleneck, a part of the pack assembly is.
 
Great post.
I haven't seen enough information to be able to conclude that the SR pack would be easier/faster to build vs LR, did anyone? Cells do not seem to be a bottleneck, a part of the pack assembly is.

Presumably the first two zones take the cells, glue them into bandoliers and assemble them with the plates. The non-LR vehicle has 2/3rds the cells, so that translates to less bandoliers and modules somehow.
 
Reading a WSJ article (actually reasonable given that it’s by Charley Grant) saying that Tesla’s cash position may become an issue if the Model3 ramp remains slow.

Ended the Q with $3.5B in cash but buring $1.8B last quarter with maybe the same for Q4.

Not a crisis, but anothe $1B or so would be nice
 
If Tesla can get their act together and get a new roadster to market in a surprisingly short amount of time, it could suck the air out of Porsche's 2 seater sports car sales at just the wrong moment for them. I am kind of hoping that the rumors that were floating around a couple weeks ago about Tesla talking to Magna will turn out to be contracting out production of the body and assembly of a high end, low volume roadster.
The Roadster II requires engineering, and it is not a current priority for Tesla. Model Y and Semi are. Roadster II will be vying for priority with the Pickup.
 
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The Roadster II requires engineering, and it is not a current priority for Tesla. Model Y and Semi are. Roadster II will be vying for priority with the Pickup.

Yes. Would be a bad sign of not being willing to prioritize projects if they were to do Roadster II now.
However I don't think new Roadster will be vying with a Tesla Pickup for more than 5 seconds, unless they decide to defer
the pickup truck for a few years until they can handle M3 and MY demand (and the cells needed for that, plus for TE, plus for Semi).
Once awareness of the brand has spread everywhere due to M3 and MY, demand for a Tesla pickup will be massive.
 
All in all, I think Techmaven's #30822 is a useful and informative post. I would have written "apparently" in a number of the places where you chose to be absolutely definitive, although that is somewhat because I am perhaps more appreciative of how writings of any sort transmit through the internet.

If all that is true, however, I am somewhat bewildered and frustrated then that Tesla, after having manufactured battery packs for some 2X10^5 Models S & X, could be having such crippling difficulties in assembling what oughtn't to be too different a version for the Model 3. Has anyone any ideas?
 
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The Roadster II requires engineering, and it is not a current priority for Tesla. Model Y and Semi are. Roadster II will be vying for priority with the Pickup.

For what I've gathered:
Y is high volume on 3 platform
Pickup is downsized semi (or semi is two axle dually pickup with large 5th wheel) also high volume. These are cost critical and would be in house.

Guesstimating:
Roadster II could reuse existing parts on new chassis, body, suspension. If it is not meant to be high volume, Tesla could outsource those parts and the build and charge accordingly.

Roadster 3 could be high volume in house.
 
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