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2017 Investor Roundtable:General Discussion

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I don't trust the carbon tax. Way too many false flags about batteries being extremely carbon intensive to the tune of them being worse than ICE and the fuel that runs them. If a carbon tax is implemented they will tax a BEV 100% saying the battery creation is the reason.
This is one of the reason I like the tax to be applied at extraction and credit at sequestration. Whatever extracted carbon finds its way into the supply chain of a BEV or really any product is already taxed. If any of the production stages in the supply chain is able to deploy CCS, then that will be netted out.

Curiously the approach bears some resemblance to Border Tax Adjustments, that Trump is interested in. With BTA there is a tax penalty on imports matched dollar for with a tax benefit on exports. I happen to belive this tax will effectively tax oil products in this country because we import about half of the crude we consume. I've written a post about this in the Shorting Oil thread.
 
How about a nice Dow 20,000 chart ;)
20170125_dow20k8_0_0.jpg
 
Longterm we need to create a market for negative emissions, carbon capture and sequestration (CCS). This is essential for actually reducing atmospheric carbon PPM. Achieving carbon neutrality only halts the climb of carbon PPM.

So I think a carbon tax needs to have CCS in mind. One possibility it to apply a carbon tax on all carbon as it is extracted from a sequestered state and supply a carbon tax credit for all carbon captured and sequester. The tax and credit could be in the same amount per tonne. Thus, the tax revenue neutral when every tonne extracted is matched with a tonne sequestered.

Bioenergy CCS (BECCS) is one such technology that provides sequestration. A BECCS plant sources a renewable carbon neutral source such a wood pellets. So burning this adds no above ground carbon. But the plate is also fitted with CCS technology that captures the carbon from the exhaust such that it can securely sequestered under ground. Thus, carbon that the trees once drew from the atmosphere finds its way back underground.

From what I've read the cost for BECCS to sequester carbon is about $100/t. Plus it generates electricity on demand from a fuel. A carbon tax without a sequestration credit would not properly incent a BECCS plant. It would potentially incent a bioenergy plant without CCS. So the CCS piece needs something extra to get it going.

I believe the carbon tax credit could also help the oil industry move forward in a constructive way. So consider that the tax is imposed on crude as it is extracted. When oil is refined, some products really ought to be sequestered or counted as such. For example, petroleum coke is a coal like substance that represents the dregs of oil. If burnt it has the highest carbon emissions per BTU of any oil product. It's nasty near worthless stuff. It should be properly disposed of rather than sold and potentially burnt. So the tax credit would incentives proper sequestration. Arguably asphalt could be counted as sequestered.

Other carbon tax schemes attempt to tax emissions, not extraction. What I am suggesting puts the burden of proof of sequestration on the party seeking the tax credit. Suppose some automaker developed a CCS system for diesel engines. The tax credit provides a mechanism to reward the installation and proper use of that equipment. One gets the credit when the carbon is properly sequestered. Service stations could gather this material from the vehicle and send it on to a valid sequestration service. That final service gets the tax credit, so it basically pays the service station for it, while the service station uses this revenue to offset the cost of service. Thus the value of the CCS works it's way all the way back to car owner and there is a clear system in place to set that the carbon is properly disposed.

So far these option only help the oil industry reduce a fraction of its extracted carbon. There are many other negative emissions technologies that oil companies may want to pursue. Essentially oil companies are geo-engineering outfits. Thus far they have focused on how to get carbon out of the ground, but they could just as well specialize in ways to put carbon back in the ground. This would by a full cycle life approach. Technologies are being developed, but the big problem is actually economic. There has to be a sequestration market that places a bounty on loose carbon. A carbon tax that provides a sequestration credit could continue to incent CCS well past the time when net zero emissions is achieved. This means could mean that the oil industry could remain viable well past the point when oil is no longer used for fuel. It may well take centuries to finally return atmospheric carbon to 350 ppm. The oil industry could spend the next hundred years just putting it back in the ground. Why should carbon be taxed today? Because CCS is slow and costly. If we fail to tax carbon, it will tax our descendents for many, many generations to come.
You burn the wood and somehow (note: unsolved problem here) capture the CO2? Why not just harvest the wood and bury it? It will become coal for our grand^1000 children.
 
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Can we stop with "Agent Orange, Orange One" & other childish name calling, its getting old!
I agree. It used to really annoy me when people disrespected the president (Pres. Obama) by calling him all sorts of names. No matter how I feel about Pres. Trump, I won't use those epithets to refer to him.
 
Can we stop with "Agent Orange, Orange One" & other childish name calling, its getting old!

The only way we can deal with the Great Nabob and Nabobism is through ridicule. I do fault the press for using a nice word, populism, to describe the anxiety felt about the world toward governments which have lost legitimacy, but the real label of the movement is National Socialism. It differs from Nazism, which the Nabob has said we exist under when it was revealed the intelligence community had evidence the Russians interfered in our election. The Nazis were more honest about their nativism and racism, indeed defining in great detail and ranking which were the ethnic groups to be categorized as subhuman. But the general parallel of white male supremacy is pretty clear in Nabobism. The Nazis were also more honest about Götterdämmerung, but that may come to us by accident at any time because of the ubiquity of nuclear weapons, bioterrorism, and cyberwar, augmented of course by going it alone since we are apt to insult old allies. And didn't Hitler have a non-aggression pact with Russia? How well did that work out for Hitler?
 
Can we stop with "Agent Orange, Orange One" & other childish name calling, its getting old!
OT: I trust you are just as sensitive about him doing the childish name calling on anyone he disagrees with or dislikes. In case you`ve been living under a rock, you`ll find some examples on this list.
 
I think the Trump administration has two positive aspects:

1. At least Musk can try to influence things in the right direction.
2. This administration should usher in a new golden age of parody. Things haven't been good since Bush left office, but I think Trump has already provided enough material for a lifetime.

I have been hoping to escape to TMC for a little respite from the Donald, but that strategy seems doomed for the time being.

So in the time honored tradition of "if you can't beat 'em join 'em," I send this along from the land of @schonelucht, for your viewing pleasure.

 
Didn't follow here the last days, but couldn't find a post about the Inventory cars.

Well, Tesla added like 600 on the US page. 200x P100Ds.

Have to say I'm a bit surprised, especially because European deliveries moved to April in late December and I thought cars build at this point would still have made it to Europe in time for Q1.
 
I agree. It used to really annoy me when people disrespected the president (Pres. Obama) by calling him all sorts of names. No matter how I feel about Pres. Trump, I won't use those epithets to refer to him.

OT: I trust you are just as sensitive about him doing the childish name calling on anyone he disagrees with or dislikes. In case you`ve been living under a rock, you`ll find some examples on this list.

Golden rule applies, IMO. Why don't we try to rise above it.;)
 
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