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2017 Investor Roundtable:General Discussion

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Until you can buy any of these mythical 2020 EVs, they are nothing but vaporware. That includes Jaguar and Audi. Though I hope more come out as i think competition will be more positive then negative.

I don't necessarily agree with the first sentence, if anything, because one could've said the same thing about Model S in 2010, and would have mispredicted the future. This means another line of logic should be used.

I primarily look at the past track record of whoever is making the promise, factors different this time, what are the roadblocks to achieving the promise, and many other indications.

Key here is: how will he produce the batteries cheaper than Tesla? But there are many many more reasons why this EV, and most others, are DOA.
 
A slightly off-topic, slightly on-topic news article...
http://jalopnik.com/elio-motors-given-an-extension-to-bring-its-three-wheel-1796034610
I almost made a reservation for one of these things about 5 years ago, and I'm glad I didn't. I think a lot of people who made reservations are going to be out whatever they put down.

Ironically enough, if these things were electric, they probably would have been able to get more seed money. Sometimes it's hard to tell with these small startups if they're actually genuine, or are just trying to bilk investors.
 
We will be nowhere close to self-driving in 99% of suburbs or cities for many years. Highways are easy. Suburbs and cities have totally whacked-out road designs, all the time, and they'll have to go through them one by one. The most heavily populated places with the most Teslas will probably have local self-driving first (so, the quirks of the Bay Area will probably be worked out long before the quirks of rural NY).

Do NOT expect the roadways to change to make self-driving easier. Why? Because the way the roadways are now -- the unpredictable, hairy environment -- is largely down to cheapness. If people ask to make the roadways better for self-driving cars, the answer will be "are you gonna pay for it?" Maybe Mountain View and Palo Alto will. Flint won't.


Right, what I'm saying is that for some people, an advanced level 4 is indistinguishable from level 5 because of where they live and where they want to travel. For others, it's basically level 2 all the time because they live somewhere that is geofenced or otherwise dangerous to run level 4. I think many of us will be in the category of level 4 being close enough to level 5 that we treat it like level 5. That means potentially large geofenced areas that are no go in fully autonomous mode and a licensed driver ready to take over in 20-60 seconds has to be in the car. Or that in some areas, it can run as if it is level 5 because the roads/intersections are good enough, or sometimes the car take non-optimal routes. But that's ok for the next 3-5 years.

I think as we get closer and have lots of level 4 running around, we'll come up with a new rating system that better explains the differences between ADAS and autonomous systems and their various limitations. Level 4 != level 4 across implementations.
 
Personally I'm neutral on the self driving, I'm fine driving myself locally and my wife never lets me drive when we travel long distances so I already have FSD. However, when it arrives I'll be happy to use it and will use it to its current limits in my model 3(s).

As an investor I hope Tesla is a leader in the field, I expect they will be. It also makes sense that a car with vision and enough computing power can mimic a human.

A couple thoughts on intersections/train crossings. It doesn't seem the difficult/expensive to add a communication device to these areas so speak to autonomous cars including light runners, pedestrians etc. they already have sensors for the cameras to take pictures of light runners. Even if this only decreases the soeed of the impact of cross traffic it's a win.

As for train crossing, same system. However, homeland security will not allow the sharing of rail line crossing schedules with the public. I'm a newly retired road cycling event promoter and we had to cross tracks frequently during competitions. I asked for schedule and was denied for above reasons.

I am still an avid competitive cyclist, I'm all for autonomous vehicles decreasing the odds of getting run over by bad/innatentive drivers (again).
 
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Until you can buy any of these mythical 2020 EVs, they are nothing but vaporware. That includes Jaguar and Audi. Though I hope more come out as i think competition will be more positive then negative.

I believe there will be a raft of new long range BEVs coming from Jaguar, Audi, Mercedes, and others. The Jaguar is in pre-production and being built by Magna in Austria who also built the Ford Focus Electric and Energi models. The issue is that they are looking to build something like 13,000 in the first year, which doesn't move the needle all that much. But it will carve a nice niche for a Model Y-like vehicle. Tesla does need competition ... it makes Tesla better and it improves the overall ecosystem. These automakers will be building in the low tens of thousands while Tesla is looking at hundreds of thousands. Such low volumes makes their cost structure for EV components much more difficult to overcome. But they do need the emissions credits or average, so they can also afford to lose money on each one on a gross margin basis.
 
I believe there will be a raft of new long range BEVs coming from Jaguar, Audi, Mercedes, and others. The Jaguar is in pre-production and being built by Magna in Austria who also built the Ford Focus Electric and Energi models. The issue is that they are looking to build something like 13,000 in the first year, which doesn't move the needle all that much. But it will carve a nice niche for a Model Y-like vehicle. Tesla does need competition ... it makes Tesla better and it improves the overall ecosystem. These automakers will be building in the low tens of thousands while Tesla is looking at hundreds of thousands. Such low volumes makes their cost structure for EV components much more difficult to overcome. But they do need the emissions credits or average, so they can also afford to lose money on each one on a gross margin basis.

The problem that I see is that it does not appear that any companies are taking this as seriously as Tesla. Without a massive battery supply that is focused on lower the cost and improving the quality (cycle rates, durability, safety, longevity), then they are destined for failure. I did some searching around today and I found 3-4 articles on companies expanding or building new battery factories and the most I think they where investing was something like $500 Mil. I think LG was going from 10,000 cars of capacity to 30,000 cars by 2018. Maybe combined they all add up to one Gigafactory, but because they are not working as one unit, the costs per KWh are much higher then Tesla. This got me thinking, Panasonic is making 100,000 cars worth of cells today and that capacity will go somewhere starting next year when Tesla converts to 2170 from the Gigafactory. That's a start, but those cells as we know are 30+% more expensive then Tesla's flagship 2170s. How much are companies willing to lose to catch up and does that really help them catch up if they arent planning on building their own battery factories?

I dont understand emissions credits that much, but it seems to me that everyone is at least making a compliance car, which would remove any credits from the market. I guess if there are new markets coming and there are higher requirements or there is some anticipation that there will be, I think I side with Tesla when they say they are mouse nuts, ever shrinking mouse nuts.

I could car companies loosing money for a while, but at some point, someone has to start building 100GWh factories because you need one for about every 1-1.5 million cars/trucks/vans or whatever else is out there. Some 20 cars are coming by the magical year of 2020, but there is absolutely no battery factories to supply those and only Tesla is building out the capacity and talking about more capacity, on the order of 3-4x more. I would expect to see article and article of Samsung, Panasonic, LG and others building new factories on the order of 1B-5B, but it just doesn't seem to be happening. Its really dumbfounding. There arnt enough mouse nuts to go around to save these autos.
 
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I think LG was going from 10,000 cars of capacity to 30,000 cars by 2018.

Panasonic is making 100,000 cars worth of cells today and that capacity will go somewhere starting next year when Tesla converts to 2170 from the Gigafactory.

Bolt is going to sell ~30k Bolt EVs this year with LG battery packs.

Tesla will continue buying cells from Panasonic's Japan factories. They have not said when/if they will convert to 2170.
 
Bolt is going to sell ~30k Bolt EVs this year with LG battery packs.

Tesla will continue buying cells from Panasonic's Japan factories. They have not said when/if they will convert to 2170.

I was basing my assumption based on the original commitment to Panasonic, which would be around 300,000 vehicles. I cant imagine them not switching as soon as they possibly can, unless they are not truly saving 30% with the 2170. That is a lot of margin to leave on the table (Roughly $6500 on a 100KWh pack). I guess if they are production constrained throughout all of next year, then they would have to stick with 18650 from Japan/China or where every they make them.
 
I was basing my assumption based on the original commitment to Panasonic, which would be around 300,000 vehicles. I cant imagine them not switching as soon as they possibly can, unless they are not truly saving 30% with the 2170. That is a lot of margin to leave on the table (Roughly $6500 on a 100KWh pack). I guess if they are production constrained throughout all of next year, then they would have to stick with 18650 from Japan/China or where every they make them.

They are going to use all the GF production and sell product using cells from Japan at a profit. Not selling additional product with Japanese cells is leaving profit on the table.

When they announced the GF and Panasonic participation Tesla said they would continue buying cells from Japan. I don't think Panasonic was going to tell the Japanese government they were spending $2.5B to mothball factories in Japan.
 
Cummins commits to electrification and more | Today's Trucking

The Street blaring headline Cummins attacks Tesla.

Cummins making short range BEV and PHEV heavy duty truck powertrains.

Interesting criticism of Tesla...

Cummins executives, meanwhile, say they are well positioned to bring such technologies to market – thanks to existing relationships with Original Equipment Manufacturers and an established global service network.

“Our competitors will not be able to scale up from the passenger car,” Furber said, in an apparent nod to Tesla’s plans to introduce a Class 8 electric vehicle by September.

Is there any validity in what they say?
 
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