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Interesting criticism of Tesla...



Is there any validity in what they say?

Zero.

Cummins is introducing gimped powertrains hoping manufactures that make glyders will use them and that their distributors sell them.

Tesla battery cells and motors will scale right along with Model 3.

Tesla will offer integrated solutions.
 
Today's fun tidbit from SeekingAlpha:

"There never was a need for a Gigafactory. Battery manufacturers could have built more capacity if there was enough demand. Elon assumed demand would just be there. There's no proof of that."

:rolleyes:
I wonder what this person thinks of the 400,000 reservations. One of my coworkers thinks most of them are fake because its full of people that just want to flip the reservation and make money off of it.
 

Interesting article. The timeline seems aggressive to me. I think it will take longer for oil to die because developing countries will probably still use a lot of oil. Also someone has to make all the batteries for the autonomous vehicles and that will take some time.

I'm with an oil company and we have developments in oil sands. If I showed the people at work here this article it would get a pretty good laugh. Not from me though because it definitely made a lot of sense.
 
let's hear it... what's wrong with this car?

Jaguar's Gorgeous Tesla-Fighting Electric SUV: Everything We Know -- The Motley Fool

"... it looks like the first vehicle to give Tesla some serious competition will wear a Jaguar badge when it begins arriving at dealers later this year. "
No self driving capabilities at all? No supercharger network? No thanks for me.

I can confidently say that I will never consider buying another vehicle in my life that doesn't have at least the current Tesla autopilot capabilities on the freeway, preferably level 3-5 self driving.
 
Interesting article. The timeline seems aggressive to me. I think it will take longer for oil to die because developing countries will probably still use a lot of oil. Also someone has to make all the batteries for the autonomous vehicles and that will take some time.

I'm with an oil company and we have developments in oil sands. If I showed the people at work here this article it would get a pretty good laugh. Not from me though because it definitely made a lot of sense.

This article is new to me, but the topic is one we've been talking about in the Shorting Oil thread. A few points that this article does a great job of bringing out:
- Notice the graph of coal production vs. coal consumption. Coal entered into the beginning of a >10 year supply glut (more production than consumption) starting in 2005 or 2006. Every single year forward has seen more production than consumption.
- As a result, coal companies have seen 99.9% of their value disappear, EVEN WHILE the units of coal being consumed have dropped from ~1100 million short tons to ~900 million short tons. The point being - VALUE disappears from the industry long before the UNITS or volume disappears.

This point isn't made in the article, but in a separate article linked from Wikipedia - coal made up ~29% of total worldwide primary energy (vs oil at 31%) in 2014 (newest data I could find, published in 2016). The units of coal are still there, but the value in the industry (compared to how it was previously valued) has vanished.
World energy consumption - Wikipedia
http://www.iea.org/publications/freepublications/publication/KeyWorld2016.pdf

In the Shorting Oil thread we're debating when does oil enter into permant demand decrease, with an assumption that will correspond to a permanent supply glut as well. The best answer we're coming up with right now is 2022 / 2023, with the pattern that each time we see something new that changes the timing, the date gets pulled in.

Whenever it actually happens, I see that same value destruction coming to the oil & gas industry really soon. Heck, it might have already started this year.


The timeline seems aggressive to me as well @Rammstein when I think about units or quantity of energy coming from O&G. The point I like to make is to separate value from units / quantity.

I see big increases in energy consumption in the developing countries coming as well - energy systems provide humans dramatic improvements in quality of life and productivity, and are critical to each of us that doesn't live in extreme poverty. There are a lot of people consuming a lot less energy than the developed world, so there's a lot of room to grow that worldwide energy demand.

The problem for the oil companies is that countries that don't have the well developed fossil fuel distribution infrastructure are likely to do some math, and decide to buy energy production in the form of solar and wind installations (competitve or cheaper today than building a new build coal, and in some cases natural gas plant), rather than buying that infrastructure or building big elaborate central electricity power production and distribution systems. Good for solar and wind, and battery etc.. storage. Not good as a demand creator for fossil fuel.

Thanks for posting that article @Starno - I'm going to cross post to the Shorting Oil thread.
 
I wonder what this person thinks of the 400,000 reservations. One of my coworkers thinks most of them are fake because its full of people that just want to flip the reservation and make money off of it.

Suggest your coworker put his/her analytical / valuations kills to the test and initiate a big short position.
 
Interesting article. The timeline seems aggressive to me. I think it will take longer for oil to die because developing countries will probably still use a lot of oil. Also someone has to make all the batteries for the autonomous vehicles and that will take some time.

I'm with an oil company and we have developments in oil sands. If I showed the people at work here this article it would get a pretty good laugh. Not from me though because it definitely made a lot of sense.

The main point is that EVs will be cheaper, better and cost less to operate. Under that condition the ICEs' sale will come to a halt. Then the oil consumption will go down 3~5% every year. The world oil consumption will not go to zero, but dropping every year will lead to big problems to the oil companies.

Some developing countries will switch to EVs quickly because of 2 reasons: 1. pollution, 2. cost.
India will ban ICE sales after 2030.
 
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Interesting criticism of Tesla...
Is there any validity in what they say?
Don't think so. What does Cummins know about building semi trucks and engines?

I wonder what this person thinks of the 400,000 reservations. One of my coworkers thinks most of them are fake because its full of people that just want to flip the reservation and make money off of it.

When a big chunk of Tesla's valuation is based on the 373K reservation count disclosed last year, one can see some motive..

Germany YTD sales

Model S 1046
BMW 740e 122
MB S500e 119
Porsche Panamera PHEV 68

Model X 496
Audi Q7 e-Tron 277
Volvo XC T8 222
Porsche Cayenne PHEV 151

Tesla doesn't yet sell the ICEv versions but beating the plug-in versions is a start.

EV Sales: Germany May 2017
The link doesn't have the other numbers, like for S500E. I suppose you picked those from somewhere else.
Is that S550E or S500E? Can you educate us on the starting price of Model S class (S60 , S70, S75, S85,90,100 etc.) and S550E/740e etc.? TIA.

Interesting that you cherry picked only the luxury electric cars from other makers.
Your link shows that despite high gas prices in Europe, Tesla's S & X still lag other gas cars in their categories.

BTW, are Tesla cars still getting some subsidies in Germany? TIA.
 
Interesting article. The timeline seems aggressive to me. I think it will take longer for oil to die because developing countries will probably still use a lot of oil. Also someone has to make all the batteries for the autonomous vehicles and that will take some time.

I'm with an oil company and we have developments in oil sands. If I showed the people at work here this article it would get a pretty good laugh. Not from me though because it definitely made a lot of sense.

Yes, these are laughable. It would take ~200 years to replace 2 billion ICE vehicles with long range EVs, if we have one gigafactory of 35 GWh coming online every year, and there are no supply chain constraints. I don't think anyone alive today has to worry about oil coming to an end in their entire life time. Not because of EVs for sure. Hybrids can cut oil consumption much faster than EVs.
There are also other uses of oil besides pouring into the gas tanks.
 
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No self driving capabilities at all? No supercharger network? No thanks for me.

I can confidently say that I will never consider buying another vehicle in my life that doesn't have at least the current Tesla autopilot capabilities on the freeway, preferably level 3-5 self driving.
wow... that sounds pretty cool... I guess you won't be buying a Tesla any time soon as they don't offer a car in your required "Level" range.

Level 3: "It means that the driver is still present and will intervene if necessary, but is not required to monitor the situation in the same way it does for the previous levels."

Elon: "AUTOPILOT IS GETTING BETTER ALL THE TIME, BUT IT IS NOT PERFECT AND STILL REQUIRES THE DRIVER TO REMAIN ALERT."

Updated: Autonomous driving levels 0 to 5: Understanding the differences - TechRepublic

and let me guess... YOU know which date Tesla will be declaring Level 3?
 
Thanks for the well reasoned response. From an investor perspective I think that if they could get it to work in the 1% of the landmass of the world (The richest 1% where most teslas are sold) , plus the interstates, that would sell more cars than they can possibly produce for decades to come. from an investment perspective, who cares if it doesn't work in Flint?
I agree. But then I think they are already going to sell more cars than they can possibly produce for years to come, because I think until electric cars are 100% of the market, they will sell every car they produce. Once we hit 80 million electric cars sold per year, then competition is an issue.

From an car sales point of view, all Tesla needs to do is be not much worse than the "self driving" features of gasoline cars, and in fact they seem likely to be consistently slightly better. It's not like anyone else is jumping leaps and bounds ahead of them. I just think the idea of coining tons of extra money from an autonomous Uber-like "Tesla Network" is simply not realistic in the near future. At most it'll be a small addition to income in a few carefully-debugged cities (since nobody will lend their car to "Tesla Network" to be driven *cross country*).

The one area that I could imagine roads being improved for self driving that would not cost very much is in striping. I would imagine that there are small changes to the way they stripe roads, that wouldn't cost any more than what they already do, that could make things much easier for self driving cars.
We have quite a few unstriped roads out here, because striping costs money. :p
 
They are going to use all the GF production and sell product using cells from Japan at a profit. Not selling additional product with Japanese cells is leaving profit on the table.

When they announced the GF and Panasonic participation Tesla said they would continue buying cells from Japan. I don't think Panasonic was going to tell the Japanese government they were spending $2.5B to mothball factories in Japan.

None of what you said makes any sense.. if Tesla can make a lot of batteries I would assume they could make enough for every car they can
build, S3X and even Y apparently. So using more expensive batteries would be weird when they could use cheaper batteries, which would be what some would call a bad business decision.

Why would Panasonic shut it's factories and not sell those batteries to someone else?

That being said, if Tesla is supply constrained on batteries, then I guess they have no choice but I'm assuming they want as much margin as possible and they want to leverage that giant investment in Nevada ASAP. And there's the whole 2170 being designed specifically for cars and not camcorders.

I could also see Panasonic converting it's lines to 2170 in Japan. Why but make the most cost effective packs there as well?
 
Railroad crossings is for sure an issue, but easily enough solved.
Yeah, put in a microphone! Trains have very specific horn sounds which are nationally regulated and are required to sound them in a specific pattern at all intersections, with the exception of the ones with lights and gates. With a microphone it's *trivial* to get it right.

One of my points is what the current level of development is. The current level of development is so babyish that they haven't even started to list off the specifications for issues like this. Once the problem is well-specified, the solution will follow quickly. Currently the people working on "self driving cars" have half-baked problem specifications and haven't been making much progress on the problem specification, so we're pretty far from a solution.
 
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let's hear it... what's wrong with this car?

Jaguar's Gorgeous Tesla-Fighting Electric SUV: Everything We Know -- The Motley Fool

"... it looks like the first vehicle to give Tesla some serious competition will wear a Jaguar badge when it begins arriving at dealers later this year. "

Model 3 sized vehicle for Model X pricing. Efficiency as stated is terrible. Unknown battery degradation. Unknown DCFC capability and no non-Tesla L3 DC charging network exists yet. ADAS system in the F-Pace... well, let's just say it isn't competitive:
The War For Autonomous Driving, Part III: US vs Germany vs Japan
Roughly 13,000 unit volume in the first year of production.
 
Elon published a paper: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
(it's a link to a PDF and the forum is not displaying a correct title)
Oh, the Mars stuff again. This is one of Musk's obsessions. Mostly harmless. No, settling on Mars does not significantly improve the human race's likely survival duration, but hey, he wants to settle on Mars, fine.

In keeping with the theme of addressing the wrong problems, his paper spends a lot of discussion on physics -- the easy part -- and none on biology -- the hard part. I hope before he tries to start his Mars colony, he hires a LOT of biologists.

"So I got to figure out a way to grow three years’ worth of food here. On a planet where nothing grows. Luckily I’m a botanist. Mars will come to fear my botany powers." --- The Martian
 
Yeah, put in a microphone! Trains have very specific horn sounds which are nationally regulated and are required to sound them in a specific pattern at all intersections, with the exception of the ones with lights and gates. With a microphone it's *trivial* to get it right.

One of my points is what the current level of development is. The current level of development is so babyish that they haven't even started to list off the specifications for issues like this. Once the problem is well-specified, the solution will follow quickly. Currently the people working on "self driving cars" have half-baked problem specifications and haven't been making much progress on the problem specification, so we're pretty far from a solution.

Frankly, no one knows where they are at with FSD. AP is not FSD, they are completely different solutions. AP2 is rushed replacement for AP1 that uses one camera and radar. It's TACC with the ability to see lane markings and stay in the middle.

FSD will use high def 3D maps. None of that is love in cars today and no one knows where they are with that development. They had a simple demo video 9 months ago and we have no idea when that video was made. The next look that we will get is on Dec unless a release between now and then adds some FSD features like being able to see stop lights and stop signs.

We just do not know. The only thing we have to go on is what Elon keeps saying.
 
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