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2017 Investor Roundtable:General Discussion

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You can cross check consumer reports by going on the Lexus LS forums. The 500,000 number you mentioned w/o powertarain issues are for older model Lexus LS before 2007 when all the added features of electronics were not available.

The current LS is consistently in the top 3 of Consumer Reports most reliable cars.

Go to Tesla Forums. Lots and lots of complaints. You might think these are the worst cars in the world.

Forums attracts owners of lemons and faux owners that for some reason want to troll. And people that owned a lemon in the past and keep saying the current ones are lemons. It is the nature of the internet to have fanbois and trolls.

And of course current LS are not old enough to accumalate 500k miles save for some random road warrior salesman that drives premium cars.

Civics,Cruze,Focus,Impreza, Mazda 3 etc come just as basic as Corolla but don't match the reliabity. Only Civic comes close.
 
You assume rationality or fact based decisions by our present Congress. They are learning to shy away from their principles as they meet reality, but the net result is inaction.

Err, I don't know about that assumption part. I hope that people can be persuaded, if they are involved in the decision making process and treated with some modicum of respect. Let's label it hope, please.
 
The current LS is consistently in the top 3 of Consumer Reports most reliable cars.

Go to Tesla Forums. Lots and lots of complaints. You might think these are the worst cars in the world.

Forums attracts owners of lemons and faux owners that for some reason want to troll. And people that owned a lemon in the past and keep saying the current ones are lemons. It is the nature of the internet to have fanbois and trolls.

And of course current LS are not old enough to accumalate 500k miles save for some random road warrior salesman that drives premium cars.

Civics,Cruze,Focus,Impreza, Mazda 3 etc come just as basic as Corolla but don't match the reliabity. Only Civic comes close.

We are talking about consumer reports, sorry but those guys just don’t strike me as being a reliable source anymore. Reliable comparable to what, an ice engine? Basically, if the radiator goes out at 100k miles then it’s rated as relaibale. If a ignition problem occurs at 80k then is acceptable... it’s also expected to get your spark plugs changed, etc...yup that’s consumer reports, they rate relatable ice engines. Tesla has raised my expectation to a level ice engines will never match, having a radiator is unexceptable in my car, period. Own the LS yourself and see what you’ll be spending, chances are you’ll be in for a few surprises, albeit it won’t be as expensive as owning a German. After 80k miles, I got anxiety every time I press the ignition switch on that LS, the thing basically died out without a warning. Had the damn thing towed twice within one year at high mileage. Another part was about to die at 80-110k, I was just waiting for it to be towed a third time before getting the Tesla. Yes I’m only one data point, but it’s not coincident that people in my circle went through the control arms nightmare with Lexus; the first thing that will pop up on the Lexus forum LS460 is control arms problem. So don’t give me that Lexus IS reliable and good for 500,000 miles. After 80k, expect to open your wallet. The memory is so fresh in my mind that I included the $1200 receipt for you. This is why it’s called a luxury vehicle, the same part on a corrola would be around $200, and it’s much worse for German cars.

This is why I love my Tesla, because I don’t need to worry about these nuances. And I certainly don’t need consumer reports telling me what to buy, I do my own research, thanks.
 

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We are talking about consumer reports, sorry but those guys just don’t strike me as being a reliable source anymore. Reliable for what for what, an ice engine? Basically, if the radiator goes out at 100k miles then it’s rated as relaibale. If a ignition problem occurs at 80k then is acceptable... it’s also expected to get your spark plugs changed, etc...yup that’s consumer reports, they rate relatable ice engines. Tesla has raised my expectation to a level ice engines will never match, having a radiator is unexceptable in my car, period. Own the LS yourself and see what you’ll be in for a few surprises.

CR rates cars overall, not just engines. Electronics,suspension,infotainment etc. For first year through three. After that variables like how you stick to the maintenance schedule affects long term durabilty. So it becomes very difficult to compare 10 year old cars.There is a reason why CR is the most trusted firm that rates automotive reliability. JD Power is a distant second.

Toyota and Lexus were too boring for me. 2003 Honda Accord was my first new car then 2010 BMW 528i then got used Model S. And I knew going in 5 Series and Model S were not going to be as reliable as Honda Accord or a Lexus LS.

But reliability isn't the end all be all in the decision to buy a car. If it was I would just buy Corollas until a BEV iterates enough to surpass it.
 
Toyota and Lexus were too boring for me. 2003 Honda Accord was my first new car then 2010 BMW 528i then got used Model S. And I knew going in 5 Series and Model S were not going to be as reliable as Honda Accord or a Lexus LS.

But reliability isn't the end all be all in the decision to buy a car. If it was I would just buy Corollas until a BEV iterates enough to surpass it.

My first car was a brand new Honda Accord, that thing had more problems than I can list. My dad owned the same Accord but a newer model, same darn transmission and overheating issues on both cars. What I’ve learned about Honda’s is that once it overheats, get rid of it, it’s all going down hill from there. My family owned three Honda’s, all three suffered from overheating and transmission problems. Don’t even get me started on the paint job, Honda’s are just miserable when it comes to paint, after 4 years mine started chipping away at the hood and started to spread like cancer. The ironic thing was that all three Honda’s had the same paint issues as well, then I notice my coworkers have the same complaint and started seeing Honda’s driving around with bad paint in sunny Southern California almost daily. When I tried selling my last Honda, a few mechanics wanted to purchase the car but backed out after I disclosed it had previously overheated (although I got it repaired they would not touch the car). One of the worst known problems for Honda was the “head gasket” it’s completely unstable and leads to overheating.

What year is your Tesla and what kind of problems are you seeing that makes it not as reliable to you? Mine is doing great, paint job is still like new. Drives like a dream and I don’t have the same anxiety as owning the LS.

The 2016 Civic scares the crap out of me. Had it on park one day and put the vehicle in reverse, instead of reversing the thing lounged forward and hit a pole. My friends and I looked at each other like wtf?!? Then we looked at the shift, and sure enough it was on reverse. We were lucky no one was walking in front of my car, that would traumatize me for the rest of my life. Although I do give the civic credit for giving me a ‘warning’ a few days before it surprised me with this accident, the ‘brake’ light came on then turned off. I brought it in the dealer and told them about it right away, they told me it’s possible that their brake malfunctioned, I had so many problems with Honda’s that anything irregular occurs I would take pictures. So I attached the brake malfunction light picture here....I’m sure I’m not the only one. The dealer was surprise I took the pic, otherwise they said it was likely driver error. Luckily the civic had a history log to backup my story.

All in all, my trust for Honda has also been mired with more trips to the mechanic than I could count. By the time it reached 120k miles a sensor needed replacement every other month, i basically had the tow truck guys on speed dial. Ended up giving the thing away for $1,200 despite it being worth more. Here’s a warning for anyone driving Honda’s, when your “brake problem” light turns on, and even when it turns off, bring it in ASAP. I believe this will cause a few problems for Honda in the future as more vehicles suffer the same malfunction.
 

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wasn’t the tax credit essentially an offer to car manufacturers to help their customers afford electric cars,for a period of time, until the cars could become more price competitive? Car manufacturers invested billions to support of this government sponsored program. Now the new regime wants to back out in the middle of the program. Can’t auto manufacturers sue over this. Would any other than Tesla actually want to?
Well you can thank US tax payers for bailing out the big three automakers nearly 10 years ago, so they in fact subsidized traditional ICE car manufacturing...
 
My first car was a brand new Honda Accord, that thing had more problems than I can list. My dad owned the same Accord but a newer model, same darn transmission and overheating issues on both cars. What I’ve learned about Honda’s is that once it overheats, get rid of it, it’s all going down hill from there. My family owned three Honda’s, all three suffered from overheating and transmission problems. Don’t even get me started on the paint job, Honda’s are just miserable when it comes to paint, after 4 years mine started chipping away at the hood and started to spread like cancer. The ironic thing was that all three Honda’s had the same paint issues as well, then I notice my coworkers have the same complaint and started seeing Honda’s driving around with bad paint in sunny Southern California almost daily. When I tried selling my last Honda, a few mechanics wanted to purchase the car but backed out after I disclosed it had previously overheated (although I got it repaired they would not touch the car). One of the worst known problems for Honda was the “head gasket” it’s completely unstable and leads to overheating.

What year is your Tesla and what kind of problems are you seeing that makes it not as reliable to you? Mine is doing great, paint job is still like new. Drives like a dream and I don’t have the same anxiety as owning the LS.

The 2016 Civic scares the crap out of me. Had it on park one day and put the vehicle in reverse, instead of reversing the thing lounged forward and hit a pole. My friends and I looked at each other like wtf?!? Then we looked at the shift, and sure enough it was on reverse. We were lucky no one was walking in front of my car, that would traumatize me for the rest of my life. Although I do give the civic credit for giving me a ‘warning’ a few days before it surprised me with this accident, the ‘brake’ light came on then turned off. I brought it in the dealer and told them about it right away, they told me it’s possible that their brake malfunctioned, I had so many problems with Honda’s that anything irregular occurs I would take pictures. So I attached the brake malfunction light picture here....I’m sure I’m not the only one. The dealer was surprise I took the pic, otherwise they said it was likely driver error. Luckily the civic had a history log to backup my story.

All in all, my trust for Honda has also been mired with more trips to the mechanic than I could count. By the time it reached 120k miles a sensor needed replacement every other month, i basically had the tow truck guys on speed dial. Ended up giving the thing away for $1,200 despite it being worth more. Here’s a warning for anyone driving Honda’s, when your “brake problem” light turns on, and even when it turns off, bring it in ASAP. I believe this will cause a few problems for Honda in the future as more vehicles suffer the same malfunction.

My 2003 I4 Automatic Accord had two recalls on the windshield wiper motor.

Other than that not a single repair outside of scheduled maintenance,front brakes, and two batteries in 113k miles. I sold the car to my nephew and he took it in for the airbag recall. I know the 7th Gen Accord V6 with automatic had 3x the transmission problems than that of an average car. Honda's week point has always been automatic transmissions.


My Accord had limo rear tint and a lighter tint up front. And parked in a garage. The paint was cherry 7 years later as was the interior.

I have a 2013 S85 I bought private party about two years ago. I have the condensation in a rear tail light. It seems changing it doesn't help. I had one door handle changed. Noise from the pano no one can exactly pin down. I had the new 12v battery installed no problems since. I am not sure if or what was fixed the first two years.

It seems you attract lemons when shopping for an ICE car. Should definetly stick to BEVs. :)
 
Well you can thank US tax payers for bailing out the big three automakers nearly 10 years ago, so they in fact subsidized traditional ICE car manufacturing...

As if we had a choice in the matter. The gov't of the USA is not representative of the people. It is run by the corporations for the corporations. Has been that way my entire life. So, people say vote for the opposite color party next time. Won't matter. SSDD.
 
The market for M3 is way larger than most people anticipate. Lets for a second understand that a car with 0$ advertising is attracting orders of 1800 a day still counting and accelerating. Thats somewhere between at least 6 - 700 k p.a. to date and most people have not even seen it in person.

There is no auto in the market that compares and no one is somewhere near in engineering and can compete in the various aspects e.g. range, price, maintenance costs, AP, expected live time, to name just a few. Once the car is out in the field and people see it we will experience a very new group of yet untouched buyers. I expect at that stage in 2-5years the annual demand to go to at least 1-2 m p.a..

Real disruption is always going much faster and more profound than people can imagine. Thats why EM is always repeating the song of exponential versus linear development but people seem not to comprehend. Exponential is simply not a part of the human DNA and therefore so hard for all of us to imagine.
That's a great point. We heard an old number of 400-600k reservations but it is easy not to consider new reservations coming online.
 
A regional German newspaper reports that the guys from Grohman are helping out at the Gigafactory, they say the production lines from an external supplier don't work as they should, Grohman guys in Nevada go so far and say it's a wreckage or a heap of rubble.
-------------------------------------------------------
So funktionieren wohl gleich mehrere Produktionslinien eines externen Zulieferers nicht so, wie sie sollen. Mitarbeiter vor Ort sprechen gar von einem "Trümmerhaufen". – Quelle: Rettung aus der Eifel: Experten aus Prüm sollen Produktion bei Tesla zum Laufen bringen ©2017
 
I think there will be impact on demand, but I think the total addressable market (TAM) is large enough, that even after losing the $7500 tax cut reduces the TAM significantly, there will still be demand enough for Tesla. In the US, BMW/MBZ/Audi sell 200K-250K 3-series, c-class, A4 annually. Plus cars like Camery/Accord/Fusion, at the top of their trim, also contributes a lot of sales in the $35K-$40K range. I think the M3 is a better car to all those even without the incentive right now, and they still have more EAP/FSD goodies coming, there is no reason the M3 couldn't sustain demand of 150K+ annually in the US, long term. Add the rest of the world who aren't impacted by this incentive, there is no reason Tesla can't maintain 400K-500K demand annually.

I also want to call out 2018 and 2019 specifically. Usually lots of people would avoid 1st model year, so 2018 could be a big unknown for Tesla. But good for us, they have a 450K reservation backlog to work off of, which will take care of 2018. Then starting 2019 there should be enough word of mouth, reviews, and wider acceptance of EV, and M3 demand should continue to roll in.
Honestly, demand is not going to be a problem for the first few years. There are several hundred thousand pre-orders and more people reserving vehicles all the time. Also, Tesla has stated that their largest increases in new orders come from areas where vehicles have just been delivered. Once M3s start getting delivered this will very likely supercharge the order book.
 
That Tesla continues to defy the conventional rules of the market and car industry only fuels the hatred towards it. People who should be right 99 times out of 100, simply can’t accept the horrific possiblility that this might be the 1 time that they are wrong.

In general the ranks of analysts negative on Tesla are worse than those positive on Tesla.
 
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According to this arcticle from 2013 Porsche´s gross margin used to be 50%. No idea how much is hat changed, but likely it is still higher then Tesla´s.
The auto industry margin reporting is particularly difficult to compare because of the nature of the industry.
Most auto manufacturers, like Porsche, actually manufacture very little, but outsource to others such as Valmet and Magna Steyr. They also produce in their own factories but nearly all their sales come from vehicles derived from other VAG models and almost all of their parts are bought from others.
Tesla may be the most vertically integrated manufacturer today. If the Panasonic JV contribution is added, they certainly are. For the ICE equivalents:
Engines are often done through joint ventures or bought from other manufacturers. For the most part, more than half, transmissions are bought from third parties with such companies as ZF. Others (Ford and GM new 10 speed for example) are developed jointly by otherwise competitive companies.

What does that have to do with Gross and Net Margins. Among other things, classification. Depending on how these sourcing deals are structures gross margins might shrink or rise based on how development and manufacturing infrastructure have been amortized.

Porsche has long benefitted by their good fortune to buy big parts of their vehicles through VAG, that amortized over large volumes and allocated modest overhead. Others, like Opel/Vauxhall/Holden/Saab did the same but their parent allocated overhead to them in a way that reduced their margins. Both have lots of complexity and many intervening variable.

In practice very few people can accurately compare GM's from one builder to another and nobody can do so precisely.

Still these comparisons are all we have and they do tend to mean something in relative terms if not absolute.

Probably lots of people will disagree with me about my next point. I think Tesla GM's are very impressive and will probably reach 25% overall sometimes around mid-2018. Other things remaining equal the higher the growth rate the lower will be GM. Why? Because staffing, inventory and infrastructure costs tend to lead sales revenue. That is insignificant on a steady state.

So we have many analysts (the bears) who do not really understand the impact of growth rates on nominally steady sate accounting.
Other analysts, like those who assess credit risk, can readily understand how to mitigate those calculation discrepancies though techniques that adjust between periods, for example. Some people cringe at one or the other.
Then there is a third way,
By making JV's and Tier One deals manufacturers can outsource lots of capital cost and buy with purchase price amortizing costs they'd otherwise have on the balance sheet.
and a fourth way,
Don't make your own product at all, outsource it all. Those"badge-engineered" ones tend to have high OM low GM. We probably know lots of these, most resulting from intra company deals which export development costs such as Chevrolet Cruze/Daewoo Lacetti. Such vehicles mostly have shared engineering but the accounting principles used allow treatment to vary according to tax consequences and public perceptions. Usually that depresses Gross margin and increases Operating margin. Sometimes, as in Isuzu Rodeo/Honda Passport and
Honda Accord/Rover 600 the derivative was a nearly zero marginal cost way of introducing a new model. those have essentially auto-dealer-like margins.

Once we evaluate all those details and others, if we can, we realize that Tesla is exceedingly efficient in use of capital, and continue to be. It seems most people who bore themselves with this detail become quite optimistic about the future of Tesla. Strange 'trade secrets' (i.e. not secret but usually ignored) begin to appear, such as the very modest cost of the Supercharger network. We also begin to see that if Tesla even achieves 50% of Model 3 expectations their OM will suddenly skyrocket.

Lastly, we finally begin to understand the impact of production automation for Model 3. Devilishly tricky to coordinated ~500 robots. Once done the GM's go exceedingly high and the OM's go with it. Once that is resolved it will be replicable with far less angst. In accounting terms most of that angst appears as diminished GM's and increased Opex and Capex. In transition the accounting is very messy. Even so the clues are all there.

Some of us want desperately to model all this. I have used up far too much memory with my iterations. Probably a few of us have done that. Not so much the 'analysts', because this stuff is work.

Simply stated, my predictions:
- 2018 will be profitable GAAP and non-GAAP. GM's will be >20% and would be higher except for the costs for Model Y, Semi and the next GF;
-CAPEX will decline in relative terms while accelerating in absolute terms;
-OPEX will be gradually declining as a % of sales;
-during 2018 new arrangements will allow CPO to be recorded as wholesale while reselling in Tesla stores with accounting looking 'dealer-like'

Two huge major issues;

The retail distribution system. At scale the impact of the NADA-States in the US will become serious. If the US Supreme Court does not resolve that issue Plan B will happen. While I have an opinion I do not know how this will be treated. I think this is a more important issue for GM's and sales than is Model 3 buildup.

China. How this issue will be resolved will have huge consequence for every accounting and business issue. GM's, OM's, sales and Capex will all be greatly affected.

All of this ends out boing the GM issue writ large in my opinion. Porsche always can have high GM because it need not deal with any of this and in fact can have most of Capex dealt with through parental support. There is an analogy: a child in 30's, still living with parents, working as a Wall Street trader. High income, low expense, apparent independence. That's Porsche.
 
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