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2017 Investor Roundtable:General Discussion

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I still think the credit is alive. See this post in the thread tax credit thread: Senate Tax Bill Eliminates EV Tax CreditSenate Tax Bill Eliminates EV Tax Credit

Some guy found the cut on the final version of the bill.

"It was cut. They repealed IRC Section 30D for vehicles placed into service after 12/31/2017. It’s on page 76 on the PDF document that displays the full text of the bill. Section 1102(c) repeals the credit and Section 1102(d) states that the repeal is effective for vehicles placed into service after 12/31/2017."

Edit: Still unsure if it was passed. Will wait for final final bill pdf lol
 
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Here is an update to the VIN sighting trend, it's looking more like step functions with exponential increase, the rise in the vertical axis (VIN) becomes increasingly larger, and the time for each step in the horizontal axis becomes increasingly shorter:

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The way the data presented here is very misleading. Y-axis should be numbers of vin spotted on the day, not the highest vin because a vin 1910 is one car and a vin of 0001 is one car, no difference. If you do it the correct way, we certainly had a spike around 11/26, but then it decreased a lot.
 
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The way the data presented here is very misleading. Y-axis should be numbers of vin spotted on the day, not the highest vin because a vin 1910 is one car and a vin of 0001 is one car, no difference. If you do it the correct way, we certainly had a spike around 11/26, but then it decreased a lot.

Both ways are legitimate IMHO - one reflecting the rate of cars delivered, one the cumulative. Both flawed by very low statistics.
 
Both ways are legitimate IMHO - one reflecting the rate of cars delivered, one the cumulative. Both flawed by very low statistics.
Highest Vin by no means represent cumulative. A 1910 spotted doesn't mean there are a total of 1910 produced at that time. We had a 1000 Vin spotted at end of September, did they produced 1000 by the end of September?
 
Any coincidence of JP Morgan short recommend and the tax plan? How do you find out who sponsored amendments and how do you find out who saw the plan before it was public?

The loss of the tax credit helps Tesla, it does not hurt Tesla. It does hurt Tesla's competitors who require the credits to sell crappy compliance cars. Now Zevs from Tesla are cheaper then making a compliance car. This hurts EV adoption as a whole, but not Tesla. Tesla cannot keep up with demand as it is, not even close. Tesla has pricing power, about $5000 from 18650 -> 2170 conversion alone. Model 3 is already competitive with a ~$24k Camry with no credits. More Zev credits, which actually go to Tesla, Fed tax credits drives demand, not cash to Tesla. Competitors who where in bad shape before are in worse shape now. Bolt now losses $10-15k per car and is not viable as a compliance car, Zevs are cheaper. If this is bad for the stock then people can't add. Fed tax credits are not cash for Tesla, they are demand for Tesla. Does Tesla have a demand problem? Tesla has already dropped the cost of the S/X $5k in the last year and added more value in terms of included extras. Demand is only going to ratchet up when model 3 hits the road in mass. Used Tesla's are now worth more, which raises residual values, which makes them a better value to purchase. This is bad news for EVs and the environment but a great benefit to Tesla. Sad, but true. Competition gets to sell cars at a bigger loss or pay more for Zevs. And what do they get for investing all this money in EVs? They will be canabolizing their profitable brands, but not anymore because no one will buy their crappy EV with no credits. Example.. a bolt is $37500, just let that sink in. So they are just screwed with no way out except to eat the losses on their model 3 and model y killers. Good luck to them.

Edit: I don't think will lower their prices because demand is higher then they can fulfill. Maybe in a year or more when they convert S/X to 2170. And still maybe not then either.
 
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I don't follow US politics religiously, but it was reported over here that the tax bill had been voted through in both houses (senate 51-49) and now awaits one Sharpie signature in a different building. How is that affected by the special election in ten days? Can the new senator cast another vote? Seems doubtful to me.

Too bad outcome. Not entirely unexpected. Will this precipitate the Next Yuge Crash, like previous tax "cuts"? How soon? (Asking for all my relatives) ):

Lucky you about not following our politics religiously. Too many of our citizens confuse religion with politics.

A tax bill is now passed by both houses of Congress, but they have some key differences. I'm sure you already know the next steps. Normally these would necessitate a Conference Committee be formed which would iron out differences in each House's version. Then it goes back to each house with no amendments for final approval before sending to the President for signature. However, in this most irregular case there is some talk of the House of Representatives approving the Senate version as is. I don't know if that has ever happened in the past as I'm not an "Americanist" by training. (Only one graduate seminar in American politics at Harvard but have taught the introductory course some seventy times, and not just the first year over and over again as with some colleagues.)

There is some talk of die hard budget hawks in the normally united Republican bloc screwing the pooch, so to speak, but that argues for Ryan, the Speaker, to call for a quick vote on the Senate version. It's almost as though the Republicans are in a race to get the payoff to billionaires done quickly before the Mueller investigation drops any more bombshells. Currently, Luther Strange is the interim Senator from Alabama replacing Jeff Sessions. That may also explain why the Reeps are in such a hurry. I don't know when the new Senator who might be a Democrat would be seated after December 12th. If Roy Moore wins, which is likely although close it would take some time to get rid of him which the leadership and others have promised, but I wouldn't count on it. Again, religion and politics.

Both Neroden and I along with perhaps others have recently addressed on the macro thread the issue of impact on the economy and stock market. I think you've got it right. Once the impact of the service cuts to citizens becomes known (realized) the plan makes no sense for the economy and then the market. But then when does the market make sense, or Republican robot-like attack on taxes for the wealthy? Can you imagine a modern economy borrowing to the hilt while making the tax burden more regressive and raiding social services in order to finance a transfer of wealth to the top ten percent which increases even more at the 1 percent level?

My wife, native to Thailand, remarked watching the news today that China is now the dominant country and "America First" is ensuring it. (Sometimes she gets unimportant things wrong, usually because of language. For the longest time she couldn't understand why Trump had hired a lawyer from her country, Ty Cobb.)
 
I wouldn't be surprised if the tax credit repeal has a significant impact on the mix of Model 3s being requested. Of course many want their car sooner rather than later, but I suspect a good portion also wanted to have it early for the potential tax credit. With this gone, those reservation holders will likely switch to the standard battery (save $9k).
 
I worry about the tax credit for my M3 order and not the company like most everyone else here. I’m not paying full price. I’m way too cheap and want my money in the stock.

A used S now looks a little more attractive with the tax credit out of the way. It’ll be a RWD and maybe AP1 if I’m lucky and if I’m willing to fork out another 10K.

This sucks for people like me but excellent news for Tesla’s competitive advantage.

Agree. This is really only irritating for Tesla buyers that had plans to buy the first half of next year. I currently have an X75D ordered and I'm not sure I'll go through with it if it's not delivered by December 31st. Current estimate is first half of January. I'm obsessively looking for an inventory X but no luck so far. If I bail on the X I'll resort back to buying the model 3 which I should also get by March. Tesla as a company will be unaffected imo.
 
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Not sure if this is a definitive answer to the question of the day, or not;

Despite initial confusion, the version of the bill passed in the Senate looks like it does keep the $7,500 EV credit intact. Originally we weren’t sure whether the version passed did maintain the credit, given that the 479-page bill was revealed just hours before the vote, and it’s full of illegible scribbles in the margins. But the House version of the bill eliminates the credit, and either version could prevail as the differences are worked out between the two (call your representative if you have thoughts on that).

Hey GOP: You passed your tax hike. Now pass your carbon price too.
 
Highest Vin by no means represent cumulative. A 1910 spotted doesn't mean there are a total of 1910 produced at that time. We had a 1000 Vin spotted at end of September, did they produced 1000 by the end of September?
The point is that since VIN delivered is random but within a batch of cars that Tesla is building, the high VIN has some correlation with how many M3 Tesla is building.

But anyway, here is a plot of # of VINs sighted each day (blue bars). It's highly granular but one can clearly see the jump in Nov, which I try to highlight by using a 7-day cumulative plot. I'm sure this new high VIN will correspond to a similar jump in Dec once we give it enough time to play out.

upload_2017-12-2_16-29-10.png
 
At this point, this is far more about dirty energy vs EVs than anything else. EVs have not fully taken off yet and people still need the incentive. TESLA was almost done with theirs, but not the other automakers. This sets everyone back and pisses me off. Forget about Tesla, we all know they are ahead of everyone else, this is about moving towards renewable energy and making the world a better place.....and the Republicans just ****ed it up.
Wrong. Your anger should be placed towards all the crappy EV manufacturers and even more so to the ones that didn’t even try. Everyone had a fair shot at the incentives and they choose not to take advantage to protect their lucrative ICE businesses. Now after that you can direct the rest of your anger towards whom ever is voting to repeal the Fed credits.

Making the world a better place takes everyone and not just the government.
 
If you had read and understood it, you wouldn't be so confused on the time frame. Nothing about the thought experiment posting spoke about 2017 and 2018! It speaks to 2020 and 2021, when M3 may reach 750K and both MY and Semi will be ramping up to volume.
The immediate in "Tesla can make more immediate profit using cells for M3/MY than Semi" doesn't mean this year or next, it means immediate profit as profit from the sale of the vehicles. I.e. excludes for the discussion any potential future profits from selling electricity to companies operating Semis.

You're right that your posting didn't reference a time frame, but having a time frame is vital to recognizing the inconsistency. That's why I spelled it out in the rest of my post. M3 will not be at 750K in the Fremont Factory, because even Musk doesn't think it's a good idea. From the Q1 2016 conference call:
"We actually believe that Fremont and the Gigafactory could scale to a million vehicles. Whether that’s actually wise is a separate question…"

So you're looking at 500k M3/MY (assuming sharing M3 production line) in 2021, and Semi ramped by 2021 (end of 2019 is when Musk expects production to start) out of the gigafactory ... because there's no Model Y announcement yet, nor factory site announcement. Everything else follows from that.
 
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The point is that since VIN delivered is random but within a batch of cars that Tesla is building, the high VIN has some correlation with how many M3 Tesla is building.

But anyway, here is a plot of # of VINs sighted each day (blue bars). It's highly granular but one can clearly see the jump in Nov, which I try to highlight by using a 7-day cumulative plot. I'm sure this new high VIN will correspond to a similar jump in Dec once we give it enough time to play out.

View attachment 264250
This is a much better representation of what's going on. I understand the#vin would have some correlation with total built/delivered. But having it on the y axis is very misleading itself. You can have a single 1910 spotted without any other cars. In this case there is an almost doubling effect on the y axis and make it look impressive but in truth it would be dismall if there were only one 1910 built
 
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Loss of tax credit hurts Tesla in the short term - there are plenty of us that can't comfortably afford the Model 3 LR without it. So if the tax credit is gone, I'm going to be stuck with a Model 3 SR. This will impact margins as it will affect the ratio of SR to LR.

It probably won't hurt them enough to be more than a blip in the statistics, but I know I'm not alone.
 
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