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2017 Investor Roundtable: TSLA Market Action

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I don't have an estimate for when we'll get to $450-500/share, but I would be content if we had no short squeeze and the stock just continued along the boring old path it's been on since the Spiegel bottom of a relatively steady increase at a >100% annual rate.:p
Until the tax credit expires you will get shorts "covering" hoping for a dip/collapse when the credit ends.

So the Shorts are converted into medium longs that swing trade the stock to cover anticipated losses. Because the stock swings so much and so frequently, I am not sure... they may make more money on the long term manipulation than they lose on the long term short.

Tesla might be the best thing that ever happened to them.

Again, I don't know what I am talking about, but Cramer does. See YouTube.
 
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Ronnie Moas, who founded and runs Standpoint Research, had long been a vocal Tesla hater. Tesla doesn't fit his methodology, so he really should ignore it. I hadn't realized that last year he raised Tesla to a HOLD from a SELL because the share price had fallen. However at that time he emphasized that he would not be tempted to look at Tesla from the long side. He should have.

Moas didn't publicly change his Tesla opinion at the recent June or September highs. However during the market session today he reverted Tesla back to a SELL from a HOLD. Perhaps now he feels he's been ignored and wants to regain media attention for himself and offer click-bait for his pretentious website. The market paid modest attention for about two minutes earlier this hour. Now he seems to have been put back on ignore.

When Warren Buffett started his operation decades ago, he went through lots of stocks and put them into three buckets: good, bad, and the ones hard to understand. He focused on the good and stayed away from the other two buckets. This approach is very powerful in investment and trading.

I don't get it why these guys keep touching something they don't understand?
 
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no matter how well Tesla does, [...] this is not a "zero sum game," meaning other automakers will still have market share."

.... and yet, to this day, I haven't seen any article pointing out that this is also true in reverse, namely, Porsche's Mission E and other such Tesla Killers are more likely to kill Panameras and A6s than Teslas.

This is how you know that some analysts are not being serious or worse, being outright deceptive. The way you put it is exactly right, if Tesla Model S happens to be the market leader in the Large Luxury segment, which it is, then any car that comes along that is better at worst makes the Model S the second place in the segment and the market for all other competitors is decreased for this new mythical Tesla killer. It is either dumb or disingenuous to think otherwise.

The problem for the traditional automaker today is that they wont be taking market share from Tesla, as Tesla only has 1% as @myusername likes to endlessly point out as a negative, which its not. Its that these traditional automakers can only take market share from each other and really from their own brands. For this honor, they get to invest (burn cash) on the order of tens of billions of dollars. Tesla is the only car company in a position to grow by taking market share. Every other existing auto manufacturer only has one direction to go. So it is a Zero sum game, though not in the classic sense. The Zero sum part is that when you add up all the market share these companies add in EVs will be offset by market share lost in ICEv netting Zero sum. Now that might be fine if they can find a way to make Evs cheaper then ICEv. The most optimistic projection of when that might happen is around 10 years. How much cash will GM, MB, BMW, VW and the rest burn in that 10 years trying to catch up and how much market share will they take from Tesla? Even if they take it all, they are going to spend tens of billions of dollars, maybe even hundreds of billions of dollars cumulatively to take 1% from Tesla? Its not only unlikely, its not worth the effort. Traditional autos are in a really bad place as even if they are enormously success, its unlikely they will grow their business and they still have to solve the dealership issues and the issues with their own dependence on ICEv revenues/profits and employees that dont fit this new world though they are must still keep them around to maintain their ICEv business. This has a compounding effect where by the less revenues you get from ICEv, the most expensive it is to support as a percent. I dont think it can be understated how complicated it will be to solve these last two issues and it just gets glossed over by people like Cramer and his clearly not well thought out statement.

I can assure you that if we can figure this out on a fan site Forum, that there are much smarter people out there who can see the writing on the wall. It will be interesting to see how things flush out over the next 5-10 years, but I think model 3 is going to put an overwhelming amount of pressure on the EU automakers and the Y will do the same for many Japanese companies and last, the Semi -> Heavy Duty Truck -> Light Duty Pickup product line will finish the job for US automakers. The 3, Y and Semi lineup are the hat trick and Tesla is the only company that I have seen that go grow from 1% to 10% to 30% and beyond over the next 10 years. The rest only have one direction they can go.
 
When Warren Buffett started his operation decades ago, he went through lots of stocks and put them into three buckets: good, bad, and the ones hard to understand. He focused on the good and stayed away from the other two buckets. This approach is very powerful in investment and trading.

I don't get it why these guys keep touch something they don't understand?

Because it's not their own money.
 
One of the first things Andrea did when she left her position as an analyst covering TSLA was to buy TSLA stock. (I think it was for a bit over $200). Then she went to work for Tesla in investor relations. What better combination of jobs can you have to understand the potential of the company? Now that she's separated from Tesla, she has the ability to invest in TSLA however she likes. If her assessment of Tesla is positive (and she's had a really, really good look at things), the move away from TSLA would offer potential investment income far greater than a Tesla paycheck.
Employees at Tesla can't purchase Tesla stock?
 
Employees at Tesla can't purchase Tesla stock?
Depend on how much they know, there may be restrictions. I worked at a small company, we had a blackout windows for ~ 1month before each quarterly ER. Bigger companies should have less restrictions for rank and file employees, but Andrea being in investor relations, probably has access to more sensitive info, so wouldn't be surprised if she has more restrictions.
 
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I can assure you that if we can figure this out on a fan site Forum, that there are much smarter people out there who can see the writing on the wall. It will be interesting to see how things flush out over the next 5-10 years, but I think model 3 is going to put an overwhelming amount of pressure on the EU automakers and the Y will do the same for many Japanese companies and last, the Semi -> Heavy Duty Truck -> Light Duty Pickup product line will finish the job for US automakers. The 3, Y and Semi lineup are the hat trick and Tesla is the only company that I have seen that go grow from 1% to 10% to 30% and beyond over the next 10 years. The rest only have one direction they can go.
How about the Chinese? My forecast is that the larger Chinese BEV companies, such as BYD, will be major factors within the next decade, in addition to having dominant shares in the world's largest car market. I agree with you that Tesla will continue to be successful in other segments than they now are, always from the top of each segment. The Chinese are attacking from the bottom.

Right now GM has 40% of global sales in China. How can they compete with Tesla, Porsche, Audi, MB from the top and BYD and others from the bottom with Renault/Nissan and others acting as spoilers from the lower middle? Of course they will not succeed. That's not to mention Ford and Fiat/Chrysler both of which are hardly even players at all.

The BMW semi-public position understands the Tesla challenge. Bizarrely the 2030 deadlines allow everyone to win, if they have the will to do so.
 
This is how you know that some analysts are not being serious or worse, being outright deceptive. The way you put it is exactly right, if Tesla Model S happens to be the market leader in the Large Luxury segment, which it is, then any car that comes along that is better at worst makes the Model S the second place in the segment and the market for all other competitors is decreased for this new mythical Tesla killer. It is either dumb or disingenuous to think otherwise.

The problem for the traditional automaker today is that they wont be taking market share from Tesla, as Tesla only has 1% as @myusername likes to endlessly point out as a negative, which its not. Its that these traditional automakers can only take market share from each other and really from their own brands. For this honor, they get to invest (burn cash) on the order of tens of billions of dollars. Tesla is the only car company in a position to grow by taking market share. Every other existing auto manufacturer only has one direction to go. So it is a Zero sum game, though not in the classic sense. The Zero sum part is that when you add up all the market share these companies add in EVs will be offset by market share lost in ICEv netting Zero sum. Now that might be fine if they can find a way to make Evs cheaper then ICEv. The most optimistic projection of when that might happen is around 10 years. How much cash will GM, MB, BMW, VW and the rest burn in that 10 years trying to catch up and how much market share will they take from Tesla? Even if they take it all, they are going to spend tens of billions of dollars, maybe even hundreds of billions of dollars cumulatively to take 1% from Tesla? Its not only unlikely, its not worth the effort. Traditional autos are in a really bad place as even if they are enormously success, its unlikely they will grow their business and they still have to solve the dealership issues and the issues with their own dependence on ICEv revenues/profits and employees that dont fit this new world though they are must still keep them around to maintain their ICEv business. This has a compounding effect where by the less revenues you get from ICEv, the most expensive it is to support as a percent. I dont think it can be understated how complicated it will be to solve these last two issues and it just gets glossed over by people like Cramer and his clearly not well thought out statement.

I can assure you that if we can figure this out on a fan site Forum, that there are much smarter people out there who can see the writing on the wall. It will be interesting to see how things flush out over the next 5-10 years, but I think model 3 is going to put an overwhelming amount of pressure on the EU automakers and the Y will do the same for many Japanese companies and last, the Semi -> Heavy Duty Truck -> Light Duty Pickup product line will finish the job for US automakers. The 3, Y and Semi lineup are the hat trick and Tesla is the only company that I have seen that go grow from 1% to 10% to 30% and beyond over the next 10 years. The rest only have one direction they can go.

Totally agree. Bulls think all transportation will switch to electric, Tesla will be the leading player. Bears think EV is just a niche market.
 
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The total VIN count is still 1100. I think the website will be fixed shortly.

Yes, I've run the program (thank you @Alketi!) late yesterday night checking VINs up to 5000. The total quantity of VINs registered with NHTSA was still 1100, with highest VIN registered 1134, and all VINs below 1134 that were registered with NHTSA previously are still being registered. I've updated (including dates) the google spreadsheet yesterday accordingly.
 
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Employees at Tesla can't purchase Tesla stock?
Yes, isn't it the opposite: While she was an analyst, she could not invest in TSLA but as she changed jobs she could, and did, I think she said. Bigly.

EDIT: But as Waiting points out her job at Tesla gave access to market sensitive info. Maybe she was quick to gobble up lots in the interim? ;)
 
How about the Chinese? My forecast is that the larger Chinese BEV companies, such as BYD, will be major factors within the next decade, in addition to having dominant shares in the world's largest car market. I agree with you that Tesla will continue to be successful in other segments than they now are, always from the top of each segment. The Chinese are attacking from the bottom.

Right now GM has 40% of global sales in China. How can they compete with Tesla, Porsche, Audi, MB from the top and BYD and others from the bottom with Renault/Nissan and others acting as spoilers from the lower middle? Of course they will not succeed. That's not to mention Ford and Fiat/Chrysler both of which are hardly even players at all.

The BMW semi-public position understands the Tesla challenge. Bizarrely the 2030 deadlines allow everyone to win, if they have the will to do so.

Chinese.. they make cars? I must have missed the Chinese auto dealer in my city. I mean, they are 1% as well. That is not something that would negatively impact Tesla chances for growth, it will only hurt the traditional autos who have 99% of the market share to lose. Tesla does not need 50% or 40% or even 30% market share. What they need is the most profitable 30%, which is exactly what they are attacking. This in turn puts even more pressure on traditional autos by eating their lunch from the top down. Let China eat their lunch from the bottom up, I dont really care about that one bit. I dont want to be HTC, I want to be Iphone, with 30% market share and 96%+ profit share.
 
You know Elon says that reasoning by analogy is not a winning strategy.
Elon does not trade stocks
in the stock market where psychology reigns supreme anything and everything works
I am not a blind follower of Elon or anyone else
just because Elon said something does not mean that I will take it seriously
I may not be a billionaire like Elon but I will get there
and do whatever it takes
in the markets those who make the biggest money are not necessarily the smartest guys
but the ones who do what it takes
 
Chinese.. they make cars? I must have missed the Chinese auto dealer in my city. I mean, they are 1% as well. That is not something that would negatively impact Tesla chances for growth, it will only hurt the traditional autos who have 99% of the market share to lose. Tesla does not need 50% or 40% or even 30% market share. What they need is the most profitable 30%, which is exactly what they are attacking. This in turn puts even more pressure on traditional autos by eating their lunch from the top down. Let China eat their lunch from the bottom up, I dont really care about that one bit. I dont want to be HTC, I want to be Iphone, with 30% market share and 96%+ profit share.
Wow, sir, you're missing a gigantic point. China is the world's largest car market. China buys 40% of GM's entire production. Just because they aren't currently competing directly for US domestic sales it's easy to forget about them. It is unwise to forget how much the China 2030 no-ICE goal will change the world of automobiles. Suddenly Mercedes first mainstream BEV will be made in China; suddenly GM announces a bunch of new BEV; suddenly VAG, BMW, Volvo (Chinese anyway) and JLR (OK, they're Indian) are all announcing major BEV thrusts.

Al that has nothing much to do with the USA, after all Tesla is the only real player in the US BEV market, and the US government is absent on the subject. It does have to do with Germany, China and all the other countries that have made 2030 anti-ICE declarations. California might join them, which will be big ones if it happens. Back to the Chinese, who already produce 100 models or so, buses, trucks, cars of multiple types. They are researching every innovation they can do.

Please consider the world when you think about BEV's. The real growth and innovation is coming from outside the USA. Tesla may be based in California but the driving impetus has come from elsewhere. The US has benefitted from the liberal immigration policy that allowed Elon Musk and so many others to come to the US. Tesla is now getting most of it's growth from non-US markets, a trend that should continue for a very long time.

I'll stop now. Please excuse me if I sound strident.
 
China is the world's largest car market.

I am not talking about consumers, Im talking about manufacturers. China is more of a threat to traditional automakers then it is to Tesla, in part because they are a very large market. But if you where a Chinese consumer, would you want to buy a BYD or Bolt? My point is that of the 100% market share, Tesla has 1% and traditional automakers in US, EU and Asia have 99%. Is there one Chinese automaker with a significant market share? Can BMW take share from GM in China? Sure. Can MB take market share from BMW in China? Sure. Can the lot of them take any market share from Tesla in China? Maybe, but at what cost and how much market share. Spend tens of billions of dollars to combat a car company with 1% market share. Its crazy. Tesla is pulling just the right strings to force these fools into fighting Tesla (Which is why they are called Tesla killers and not GM killers), but in fact they will be doing each other more harm and playing right into Tesla's master plan.

Im not discounting China's value to Tesla, im discounting China's impact as a manufacturer to Tesla's chances for growth from 1% market share. In fact China is probably going to be Tesla's largest market by the end of this year. No one, not even Chinese want a Chinese EV, because they suck, just like non-Tesla US EVs.
 
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