Scuttlebutt on 2018.21.1 is that its even worse than 21. Even more frequent nags (10s) and no new features or AP improvements. We're in some serious trouble. I'm avoiding installing any more updates. I wish I had stuck with 2018.12....
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2018.21 0fa48d9
- Thread starter battleroyale
- Start date
Hopefully the conclusion of playing with increased nagging is that customers hate it and it didn't improve safety?
One can hope.
I can't imagine how anyone things tugging at a wheel every 10 seconds is something that will appeal to anyone? Why waste time with this when there are many many other avenues to pursue that will result in increased safety, effectiveness, and usefulness?
The dearth of anything since 2018.10.4 has me thinking about my options because EAP seems farther and farther from reality as time passes.
I presume because this is something extremely simple they can tweak without much engineering work.
On the other hand, it doesn't seem like major releases for Autopilot happen more often than once every 6 months anyway, so I wouldn't read too much into the quietness since 2018.10.4. This seems to be more of an early-access release to get owner opinions on what it's like to drive with increased nagging. I am still hoping it's not necessarily a sign of what Tesla's going to do for the real customer base.
This is like a restaurant trying to figure out whether serving soup with hairs and flies floating in it is good for business or not. Why waste the time determining something so obvious?
I don't think it's that obvious though, once the anger/outrage melts away.
The nag also serves as an attentiveness check: If every 10 seconds you expect the car to tell you "tug the wheel" and you've got a few seconds to respond to that before the alerts escalate, it is going to at least keep you more engaged with paying attention in the context of watching for alert nags.
I'm not an expert on human behavior, but anecdotally there's a pretty big difference between 10 seconds of distraction vs allowing drivers to go 2-5 minutes between nags (on certain road conditions currently with AP1 or AP2). The latter is practically enough time to watch a music video before the car reminds you maybe you should be looking at the road.
FWIW, I'll admit to not being a perfect driver: There's been a few occasions where the car flashing the Hold Steering Wheel alert was when I suddenly realized that I had zoned out for a while. How long was that? Who knows, probably as much as 2 minutes. I hope not.
Just playing devil's advocate — I think there is some merit to the idea that more frequent nagging results in a more engaged driver. But yeah, as someone that paid $8000 for what's supposed to be the most advanced continuously-improving ADAS, it kind of feels like BS as well — I also would rather they make actual improvements to automation safety rather than better babysitting of inattentive drivers.
I think the question is less: “Will people find this annoying” and more: “Will people find this so annoying they stop using autopilot entirely”. As long as the latter isn’t true, they can likely show better safety results from AP vs if they keep it at 1 minute+
And, anyway, it took fewer than ten seconds for the AP error that steered the X into the barrier.
Hilariously, Tesla asserts in writing that they have released EAP features.
Inattentive drivers cannot be cured by nags. This is a waste of resources, even if its trifling, they have wasted 2 early access builds on useless garbage. Early access is supposed to be about testing real features that aren't quite ready for mainstream and they check to see if they are close enough (e.g. cars appearing in all lanes in the IC (which still hasn't made it to us plebs)).
Tesla will be really making a mistake if they keep wasting time on people who cannot help themselves by paying attention. Not that nags actually correlate to attentiveness, but I think a 10s nag will force people to employ oranges which would be even worse for Tesla.
Would you use AP if you had to tug at the damn wheel every 10 seconds? Driving a Tesla isn't a root canal, so I'd just opt for manual driving but then I'll be going after Tesla for my $8k and maybe more since I would never have bought my car knowing they'd deprive me of the one feature I desired.
At least we know with Tesla's glacial deployment of features, it will be months before anything in early access makes it way into normal distribution.
mtndrew1
Active Member
I just leave my right hand resting on the bottom of the steering wheel when AP is on and I get virtually zero nags. I don’t have to tug at anything.
I’d be annoyed that I’m losing the ability to go that long with no nags, but, honestly, I keep my hands on the wheel with AP pretty much 100% of the time nowadays anyway. My experience would be largely unchanged, with nags only every once in a long while when I don’t have enough tension on the wheel.
Ditto. Honestly, after one or two situations where AP1 and AP2 did something frightening on a moment's notice, and after seeing how much Tesla likes to use the "driver was warned to keep hands on the wheel" narrative… I just keep a hand on the wheel at all times. Usually gripping the bottom or a side.
It makes me feel more in tune with the car. Helps me react quicker if driving alongside another car and things go south, and also the haptic feedback of the car making an inappropriate steering movement seems to be a lot easier to detect earlier on.
I maybe get nagged once or twice per hour of driving. And it's maybe 25-50% right about me being a little checked out.
Meanwhile my SO hates constantly grabbing the wheel but still does a good job of remaining attentive. So, it depends on driving habits I guess.
Maybe I have Trump hands but I get nags. I have to give a small tug every minute or so.
If the light touch I normally maintain on straight roads when autopilot is NOT on is not enough touch for when autopilot IS on, then it's broken - and that's precisely what it is for me. The nag feature relying on torque on the steering wheel is what's at fault here; if I'm holding the steering wheel all the time and it's still nagging me then it's a false positive. Lack of a touch sensor in the steering wheel is the real issue but you know how Tesla is - once they've deployed hardware they insist is the correct way to tackle a problem, they'll do everything in their power to try and make that hardware work instead of admitting it isn't adequate and provide a hardware fix.
I feel like it's some other kind of orange that helps….
But I think it's partly the holding technique too. It involves tugging on the wheel with just a little bit of resistance. Takes practice to get that right. It's certainly NOT how you "naturally" hold a steering wheel when you're driving. But then again, nothing about supervising Autopilot is like normal driving anyway.
Monitoring a L2 ADAS system is almost a completely different skillset than being an effective driver.
Not true. Nothing about L2 requires wheel tugging. If I have to hold the wheel differently than I do for normal driving, then its not setting me up to properly take over in an emergency. They have designed the system incorrectly and they need to rethink driver monitoring and driver engagement for L2.
I hate to say it, but supercruise (minus the tacky lights on the steering wheel) has a better system. I'd deal with a driver cam over 10s nags any day of the week because I am constantly vigilant but I loathe tugging randomly to please an inadequately designed system.
I bought into this version of AP because I thought it would have LESS nagging, not more.
Cirrus MS100D
Member
This is purely devil’s advocate with NO evidence or insider knowledge, but...
...what if they are getting ready to open up something closer (maybe just 1 step) to FSD (on ramp / off ramp?) Given the recent headlines about AutoPilot or a once-bitten, twice-shy mentality, they’re going to simultaneously make drivers watch it like a hawk and then slowly increase the nag timer if AP proves itself through real-world feedback and data?
(My gut says the nag timer change is purely the result of lawyers or NHTSA/NTSB pressure, but a man can dream, right?)
...what if they are getting ready to open up something closer (maybe just 1 step) to FSD (on ramp / off ramp?) Given the recent headlines about AutoPilot or a once-bitten, twice-shy mentality, they’re going to simultaneously make drivers watch it like a hawk and then slowly increase the nag timer if AP proves itself through real-world feedback and data?
(My gut says the nag timer change is purely the result of lawyers or NHTSA/NTSB pressure, but a man can dream, right?)
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
I think the nagging is temporary. As Autopilot gets better and more confident and gets closer to FSD, there will be less and less need for the nagging because the system will be good enough to handle things without driver supervision. The nagging is just a necessary evil when you have a L2 system that still requires driver attention.
