2018.21 0fa48d9

[Snowstorm]

We can still hope that this is an early test and it won’t make it into the real public release. I for one will be extremely upset if it nags every 10s, and would be asking Tesla some questions on what happened to the $5000 that I gave them for the enhanced AP when it is clearly not enhanced in the right direction.

Tesla, do not so it!

 

[rpm001]

This is a really interesting discussion. On one hand, I'm not looking forward to 10s nags. But, I think Tesla is in a precarious position with respect to autopilot right now. I think that there has to be a clear demonstration that everything is being done to make the system as safe as possible, in order to win over the public perception of the technology. It's going to take some time. But I worry that with all the negative press these days that there is a risk that some over-zealous lawmaker or regulatory board could come out and ban EAP on public roads. It doesn't matter if it's fair or not, what matters is the public sentiment. We're in exciting times, no matter which way it goes!

 

[Snowstorm]

While we are at it, why not require a tap on the brake every 10 seconds when cruise control is active?

 

[whitex]

We can still hope that this is an early test and it won’t make it into the real public release. I for one will be extremely upset if it nags every 10s, and would be asking Tesla some questions on what happened to the $5000 that I gave them for the enhanced AP when it is clearly not enhanced in the right direction.

Tesla, do not so it!

If using EAP as per instructions, i.e. both hands on the wheel 100% of the time, you should see no nags. If you see nags, then you are using it wrong, risking not just your life but life of other people on the road, and of course Tesla's reputation. Want to help Elon develop FSD, you have to do it as per instructions or not at all.

Only final, post-beta, FSD comes with no nags. Until then, humans are the "safety crutch" used in advancing towards FSD (instead of lidar or radar BSM like the other guys) and they need to be ready to take over in a split second, hence the system needs to make sure they are in fact ready.

 

[Unpilot]

Were is my popcorn

 

[conman]

If using EAP as per instructions, i.e. both hands on the wheel 100% of the time, you should see no nags. If you see nags, then you are using it wrong, risking not just your life but life of other people on the road, and of course Tesla's reputation. Want to help Elon develop FSD, you have to do it as per instructions or not at all.

I have my hands on the wheel 100% of the time with AP (there is no EAP) and still get nags. I hold them the same way I hold them when AP is off and obviously get no nags then. You are basically saying we are driving wrong. One does not normally apply torque on the steering wheel when driving in a straight line unless they need a wheel alignment.

 

[ucmndd]

I have my hands on the wheel 100% of the time with AP (there is no EAP) and still get nags. I hold them the same way I hold them when AP is off and obviously get no nags then. You are basically saying we are driving wrong.

You’re holding it wrong.

 

[ahkahn]

Simple solution: Weigh down the wheel...

 

[croman]

Simple solution: Weigh down the wheel...

And that's exactly why this isn't encouraging safe driving behavior.

 

[ahkahn]

And that's exactly why this isn't encouraging safe driving behavior.

Are you referring to the increased nags?

 

[KArnold]

Personally I find the nag distracting. When it happens I naturally take my eyes off the road to see what's trying to get my attention. Frequent nags feel.much less safe to me. Seems they hadn't thought this through. A passive solution is best and I'd even pay for the camera (within reason) if it turned off the nag because I am engaged while driving like most people are.

Even without that, adjust the nag timing based on the type of road and/or traffic conditions. Freeways or rush hour rarely need frequent nags. Maybe secondary roads do. That's only software.

The AP was a major selling point for me. If this condition persists the competition will pass them up. Maybe not today in an EV, but certainly on an ICE very soon if not already. And their EV cousins likely within a year, IMHO. They are not the only rodeo in town.

I'll pass for a while on updates - my 2018.20 seems to work just fine. In the meantime I'll express my dissatisfaction with this change up the Tesla food chain. I'd suggest everyone who doesn't like this to let them know as well.

Just my $.02, of course.

 

[croman]

Are you referring to the increased nags?

Yes, sorry, I believe it will drive people to do unsafe things because its so damn annoying and counterproductive to what EAP is supposed to do. Either people will waste $5k and drive themselves, or resort to means to bypass or disable them.

 

[ucmndd]

You’re holding it wrong.

The number of disagrees this post received leads me to believe the internet acumen of this forum is not where I assumed it to be.

We’ll work on that.

 

[Joe F]

So it appears we have the makings of “rub and tug gate.”

If there’s a road that is so straight that the wheel doesn’t do its normal micro steering adjustments, which slightly resisting is enough to satisfy AP hands-on-wheel detection, you're on the highway to heaven.

The straightest roads I’ve ever been on still causes slight wheel movements, if ever so slight. I’m thinking if one doesn’t get nags now when applying slight finger pressure on the wheel as it moves, the 10 second nags should not be something you’re likely to see.

The only time I’ve had to “tug” on the wheel is if I was doing something that took my attention off of holding the wheel as intended. For me it’s a rare event. Not sure why others find differently, IMHO.

 

[P100DHG.]

I just leave my right hand resting on the bottom of the steering wheel when AP is on and I get virtually zero nags. I don’t have to tug at anything.

I rest my left elbow by the window and have my left hand on the 9 o clock position on the steering wheel, resting on a spoke and I get frequent nags telling me I’m not holding the wheel. I’m holding already what more does it want from me!?!? 10 second nags and I’m just going to steer myself I do a better job anyway.

 

[TaoJones]

Again, AP1's nag implementation was and is far better than AP2's. Go find an AP1 car at an owners club and go for a ride to see for yourself.

rant alert:

The AP2 implementation is distracting and at the same time insufficient for the task. The two worst UI/UX debacles from 8.* forward and from AP2 are the white border flashing around the IC instead of how AP1 does it, and the too many taps required to like/dislike an audio track/news story and to then return the MCU tiles to their previous/preferred state.

Among the many fixes we've been told are "light years ahead" and coming "soon" (bwhahahahaha what credibility, really) was the one about better UI/UX for Nav and audio and on and on and on. Years down this rabbit hole and things are not improving because... priorities? OK, priorities. Safety optimization be damned. Let's not keep our eyes on the road as much as possible.

I would be fine with "priorities" as an excuse ^H^H^H^H reason, with one glaring problem. That being the complete and utter lack of a transparent roadmap/timeline for those very UI/UX fixes. We were told last Fall by one member of senior management no longer with the company that impressive things were coming. We were told quite recently by another member of senior management who's about to face some vocal opposition to the continuation of his C-level role that Nav would be "light years ahead" and would "roll out slowly at first". Ok, for Elon that latter statement is a marked and commendable improvement in communication style right there, but what's missing is the follow up and the when. It doesn't even have to be precise or accurate - just identify the targeted calendar quarter, ffs.

What's frustrating is that Tesla is an industry-leading company for the time being at least. Continuous improvement is measured in fractions of a percent at that level. But for the love of (insert supranatural entity of your choice here), can someone take ownership of the messaging? From release notes to product roadmaps, there are opportunities to address some low-hanging fruit here that would pay big dividends - even if the stock doesn't yet *polite cough*.

/rant alert.

 

[ahkahn]

Yes, sorry, I believe it will drive people to do unsafe things because its so damn annoying and counterproductive to what EAP is supposed to do. Either people will waste $5k and drive themselves, or resort to means to bypass or disable them.

That's very likely what Tesla's legal department wants. If they have a 10 second nag, and some moron (aka: me) rams their vehicle into a barrier and there is a wheel weight of some sort weighing down the wheel, that gets Tesla off the hook. Basically the headline becomes "Driver cheated Tesla's Autopilot system and crashed" rather than "Another Tesla Autopilot crash".

 

[ucmndd]

That's very likely what Tesla's legal department wants. If they have a 10 second nag, and some moron (aka: me) rams their vehicle into a barrier and there is a wheel weight of some sort weighing down the wheel, that gets Tesla off the hook. Basically the headline becomes "Driver cheated Tesla's Autopilot system and crashed" rather than "Another Tesla Autopilot crash".

Agree. The lawyers have control over the AP team at Tesla right now and this is the direct result of the media circus over every crash.

 

[croman]

That's very likely what Tesla's legal department wants. If they have a 10 second nag, and some moron (aka: me) rams their vehicle into a barrier and there is a wheel weight of some sort weighing down the wheel, that gets Tesla off the hook. Basically the headline becomes "Driver cheated Tesla's Autopilot system and crashed" rather than "Another Tesla Autopilot crash".

Might work in media but not courtroom. 101 crash attorneys are likely pursuing product defect, not negligence. Tesla further crippling their system isn't going to help because the prior crashes will just point juries to Tesla's admission that their system should've better monitored drivers and new crashes will argue the system distracts rather than keeps people safer.

Just improve the product. Cut the crap and they'll give their outside counsel less work/money.

 

[ahkahn]

Might work in media but not courtroom. 101 crash attorneys are likely pursuing product defect, not negligence. Tesla further crippling their system isn't going to help because the prior crashes will just point juries to Tesla's admission that their system should've better monitored drivers and new crashes will argue the system distracts rather than keeps people safer.

Just improve the product. Cut the crap and they'll give their outside counsel less work/money.

The media can make or break the sales of future vehicles. The courtroom can be handled separately...