Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
I have no idea why members of the League of Lowered Expectations bother to take part in what are obviously meant to be hopeful, highly speculative threads.
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Garlan Garner
Banned
I don't have any specs, but I do have an example. Drive it hard.
Now tell me that a tesla can't run hard continuously.
Does discussion of (possibly past) problems of Tesla make you feel a little bit confrontational?
That's a pity, because the Pikes Peak climb is not that good an example when it comes to possible overheating of the battery.
From the perspective of the battery cooling, Pikes Peak _is_ interesting because it starts at an altitude (1440m) and gains quite a lot as well (2860m), so both more work and less cooling.
The problem is however, that it is both very short and full of curves making for a very low average speed, just over 100 km/h and more significant for just about 12 minutes.
Don't get me wrong, climbing Pikes Peak in less than 12 minutes is an awesome feat that testifies to both the skill of the driver and the capability of the Model S, a family sedan!
It is just not that demanding of the battery.
Still, in the video the driver actually says (at 05m50s):
"This car was designed, and because it is so fast, to accelerate quickly, but not accelerate quickly over and over and over and over again", and about the acceleration he goes on to say:
"That creates a lot of heat in the car, so from a driver's perspective I have to be very careful in how much energy I use early, to build up too much heat".
I experienced the battery overheating in the 2013 P85+ by just keeping the pedal pressed all the way down for a half hour (on a straight and empty Autobahn(*) at night, so no particular driving skills demonstrated). While initially going well over 200 km/h, the second half of that drive was limited to 160kW and I could not back get up to 200 km//h...
And all I was asking, was if someone had some specifics to indicate that this problem has been solved in newer models.
(*) The A92, where not-particularly-skilled Porsche driver's often go so they can drive fast and sometimes crash (also with one another):
Porsche-Treffen geht übel aus
Auf der A92: 24-Jähriger fährt Porsche zu Schrott | Freising
Porsche gerät bei Tempo 200 ins Schleudern, schanzt über Leitplanke, fliegt 200 Meter weit und landet auf Gegenfahrbahn – Sportwagen brennt komplett aus – Fahrer und Beifahrer unverletzt!
JeffK
Well-Known Member
The car is designed and geared as a road car. The Autobahn is a unique situation which the rest of the world doesn't have. I'm not sure in the real world on legal roads many people deal with overheating issues. Leading me to conclude that the majority of time the Tesla is a superior car.
As to the next gen roadster... now that might be made to ride hard continuously, we'll see.
As to the next gen roadster... now that might be made to ride hard continuously, we'll see.
I don't think this side discussion was ever about the normal use case. It was about a performance-demanding use case only. Specifically, it's regarding the case of frequent periods of high accelerarion, regardless of road (i.e. also involves frequent breaking). Very few drivers require or want that repeatable acceleration performance, so it's not in the least a deal breaker for most prospective buyers. Let that be clear.
This particular performance limitation is, however, the largest shortcoming Tesla's cars will have compared to performance-oriented ICE cars. The limitation is a reflection of the current state of battery thermal-mgmt technology, which is relatively new.
The performance-oriented ICE cars to which I'm referring are the 8-minute and sub 8-minute Nurburgring (defacto standard) track-time cars.
So when Tesla says the are going after the BMW 3-series with the Model 3, they are not also going after the BMW M3 market, as the EVs they build are simply non competitive with that market. It is highly unlikely, without a significant redesign of the cooling system, that the Tesla Model 3 would even be performance competitve with BMW's $33k base-model 3-series on that road course.
But again, the vast majority of people don't buy cars to have this type of performance.
JeffK
Well-Known Member
See this is actually contradictory as the majority of BMW M3 owners would not be racing on such a track or require that kind of sustained performance. So in essence they are targeting the majority of the BMW M3 market (and the rest of the 3 series).
If I had a choice between a BMW M3 at over $60K which does a 0-60 in 3.8 seconds or a PxxD with possibly ludicrous mode at a similar or lower price point then I'm going to choose the Tesla as it'll be a quicker car for the price.
If I'm frequenting the Nurburgring then why settle for a BMW M3 or a Tesla Model 3 when there are many faster, lighter, better handling, cars?
The BMW M3 was mentioned in response to a post. But it also happens to be the performance version of the BMW 3-series. Tesla is explicitly targeting the 3-series with the Model 3. The key and important thing to understand is that the relatively few M (and RS and AMG) buyers are intentionally paying a premium for just those bits of engineering that make the car a better performer. That is the nature of the performance market. And the nature of the buyer's benchmarks for performance, whether or not this is frequented by themselves, happens to be that long road course: List of Nürburgring Nordschleife lap times - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"According to Car and Driver, Nürburgring Nordschleife "record-chasing runs are a universally accepted, objective measure of a car’s performance, and shaving seconds gives automakers reasons to grab some headlines."
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And that, a significant redesign of the cooling system, is the topic of this thread.
It has not been talked about it in conjunction with performance, but if it is a redesign of the cooling system it would not be to far of that they try to address the shortcomings of the existing.
It will be interesting to see what they come up with. People are speculating that they'll switch to use the same tech other manufacturers like BMW are already using. Direct Expansion?
BMW and LG Chem Trump Tesla in Battery Thermal Management - HybridCars.com
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If base model holds true to what they say being EPA Rating 215 miles, would love to see what battery upgrade will give. If the offer upgrade to at least 260+ ... That'll be the first upgrade I'll do...
I wish they'll offer the 85kw battery on model 3..290+ miles!!
I wish they'll offer the 85kw battery on model 3..290+ miles!!
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
Lemme get this straight... You believe that 12 minutes on Pike's Peak is less stressful than a similar amount of time on the Nürburgring, or Laguna Seca, or Streets of Willow, or Road America? C'mon, MAN!
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
Yadda, yadda, yadda... A pure stock Performance version of the Tesla Model ☰ will post lap times below 7:30 before 2020 at the Nürburgring. That should place it in very good company.
Top 100 Lap Records | Nürburgring Lap Times
Agreed, get a nice cost reduction for the models S by making a mass produced 320k inverter for the Model 3
Garlan Garner
Banned
No.
I'm bringing articles and facts. If you don't agree....fine. BTW, I will be enjoying my overheating M3 soon. I'll send you some pictures.
I have no idea from where you could possibly be basing that assertion. Do you?
Such a feat would be quite impressive, but I wouldn't count on that possibility so soon.
I'd think Tesla's first priority with regards to cooling would be to make the equivalent functionality cheaper to manufacture, followed by efforts to help decrease required charging time. Is repeatable acceleration performance that much of a priority? I think not because barely anyone is even aware of the limitations or care based on their performance needs. If the broad market doesn't care, why should Tesla?
OK, let me change my position slightly:
To the extent that the Pike's Peak climb _is_ stressful on the battery, the heat _is_ causing a performance problem, per the driver's explanation in the video, see my previous posting.
But my point is that:
1) Even considering the climb and the limited cooling due to lower air pressure, the average speed of 100 km/h is not even half the speed of just driving level with full throttle, so the power delivered from the battery must be significantly less.
2) Running the car for just 12 minutes is nothing. An mass-produced ICE can drive full throttle for hours without overheating.
The Pike Peak climb is only 20 km. Do it five times (up and down) - or better something of similar duration where one can drive much faster without crashing, that would be an interesting demonstration of how well the Model S cools its battery - which is what my question concerns.
JeffK
Well-Known Member
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
Based upon the simple statement by Elon Musk a couple of years ago that Tesla can't just make a mass market car that is only 'a little bit better' or 'the same as' its competitors. It has to be BETTER, otherwise, no one would have a reason to buy one. Based upon his reiteration of their commitment to Performance as a primary motivating factor in making their cars compelling when he said Tesla doesn't make slow cars. Based upon the fact so many gearheads keep moving the goalposts every single time something they claimed couldn't possibly be done by an electric car - thereby all but daring Tesla to prove them wrong -- so they do. Based upon the premise that was posed by Elon ten years ago, and that he has maintained since, that most forms of technology need to go through about three generations of refinement before they reach their preeminent form. Thus, when the Tesla Generation III vehicles, starting with the Model ☰ arrive, the grand percentage of potential Naysayer talking points will be eliminated once and for all and in short order.
Did I mention...? Yadda, yadda, yadda... Your level of doubt is of no concern whatsoever. Zero. I remind you that 'soon' is a whole lot closer than 'never'. And that everything that Tesla Motors does is taking place no less than 15-to-20 years soonER than the traditional automobile manufacturers would have even considered starting to think about maybe doing... some day.
It's been over 18 months since the Model S P85D first saw deliveries, and quite a long time since the Model S P90D was offered. Where is the defender of ICE among its direct competitors? Please, show me that the performance aspects achieved by these vehicles were 'no big deal'. Give me an example of the production Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes-Benz/AMG S-Class, BMW/Alpina 7-Series, or Porsche Panamera that sorely SMOKES the Tesla sedan at 0-60 MPH or 0-100 kph, leaving it half a second or more behind. Go ahead. I'll wait.
Somehow, I am absolutely certain it WOULD matter if the quickest, most expensive, most technologically advanced version of the Tesla Model S were half a second SLOWER to 60 MPH than those competitors, all of a sudden, wouldn't it?
Here's the thing with Tesla Motors. They have a whole bunch of priorities. Because they employ smart people, they realize that working on those priorities is not, and should not be linear. They work on their priorities in parallel. And they deliver the results when they are ready. Then they improve upon them all constantly. So nothing is ever 'done'.
For an ICE vehicle, their 'cooling' efforts are such that an engine and exhaust system to operate between 200° F and 500° F. For the battery pack in a Tesla Motors product, the optimum operating temperature is between 35° F and 95° F. And, the ambient temperature of the system as a whole works best between maybe 20° F and 130° F. Show me an ICE vehicle that breaks records at the Nürburgring while operating at room temperature. Go ahead. I'll wait. WHEN the Tesla Model ☰ does exactly as I've stated and finishes multiple laps at Nürburgring in less than 7:30, the hottest part of the car will be the brakes and tires.
Ah, but those of us who DO KNOW will be incessantly berated by the Naysayers, who will repeatedly make trite statements such as, "Yeah, but you CAN'T track it!" or, "Those stats are ONLY in a STRAIGHT LINE!" and, "True performance involves taking RIGHTS AND LEFTS!" or, the very last bastion of automotive excellence for ICE, "There's no replacement for displacement! You need CYLINDERS and PISTONS to get over 250 MPH without using jet fuel!" Each and every one of these protests, feeble as they may be, must fall to the wayside (along with range concerns) so that Naysayers can be told to [SIERRA TANGO FOXTROT UNIFORM] once and for all. These things will come to pass because they will demand it happen. They will remain a very highly vocal minority, they will get a whole bunch of attention, and they absolutely will not stop -- EVER -- until they are proven wrong publicly and demonstrably and repeatedly.
Oh... And because the BMW M3 managed the feat at 7:48... While the BMW M4 finished the circuit of Nürburgring in 7:28. This would be the primary competitor to a Tesla Model ☰ P100D. It must be beaten, embarrassed, disposed of, taken down for good. That's why.
"To be the man, you gotta BEAT the man!" -- Ric Flair
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Assuming they have the same technology level, yes. I suspect we'll see Model S delivered with more "barely out of research" tech to give it the edge over Model 3, at least initially.
JeffK
Well-Known Member
I think the staggered tech will be only a few months ahead especially if it's performance related. For other things like door handles, they might not trickle down to the Model 3 but the core components for performance and safety should trickle down as soon as it's possible to mass produce for the Model 3.
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