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It's not solved in my Dec '14 P85D with Ludicrous upgrade. I spent more than half of my 7/2/2016 outing at The Ridge (Shelton, WA) at the first (240kW) or second (120kW) power limiter. It was a 7 session -- with a soft/warmup first session -- day where I ran sessions 1, 2, 3, and 5. The Ridge had a 14-50 for me to use which I used during all down time, including lunch. I started the day with 100% charge. For sessions 2, 3, and 5, I exited the track 1-2 laps early because the power-limiting was punishing. I left the track with 58 rated miles after the 5th session to head to Centralia. (I should have made a supercharger run over lunch like I did last time.)
Temperature was mid-70s and overcast (though I still managed some sunburn). No blinding sunshine but completely dry track.
Well stated. Concur. I'd love to see Tesla change their philosophy somewhat -- and go after the M3 market -- but all conversations I've had with Tesla employees and performance-interested folks that have had deep discussions with Tesla support the argument that Tesla hasn't been and isn't interested in going after that market. It's frustrating for those of us that track our cars with M3s, Audis, Porsches, and Ferraris and would like to have full sessions of competitive performance.
That said, if you're just working on skills it's, um, "interesting and challenging" to be driving a 400kW (536hp) car and a 120kW car (161hp) car in the same 20 minute session. Somewhat depressing, but great for skills building.
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Garlan Garner
Banned
zenmaster sai
All I want is Ludicrous 0-60 times. That's a street dynamic. Not a track dynamic.
Why is everyone interested in taking a street car ( M3, MS, MX ) and put it on a track?
All I want is Ludicrous 0-60 times. That's a street dynamic. Not a track dynamic.
Garlan Garner
Banned
I'll tell you what though.
I might have to adjust my purchase if the Ludicrous version does not provide sub 4 times at $60K.
I might have to adjust my purchase if the Ludicrous version does not provide sub 4 times at $60K.
JeffK
Well-Known Member
Same here, I'm not rich so if I'm going to spend $60k on a car it'd better be fast and last for years.
Why pay extra for performance and not use it? I don't spend money to gold plate things in my garage. Do you?
And who says "everyone" is interested in that?
What makes you believe that's the case? I'd think maybe less than one out of every one thousand would want to do that.
Where do you live or what are you reading that makes you think that is something everyone wants to do? I actually think you are BSing.
Garlan Garner
Banned
Folks in this thread are interested in taking a street car and placing it on the track that's who. Read the comments. Just read.
No I don't spend my money as you have asked, that's exactly why I won't criticize the M3 or MS on its track performance. Its not designed or built for it. They are cars for the street.
Is that clear enough?
I think you're misreading my post. The portion you quoted was me quoting someone else.
Tesla M3 PXXD will be a better performing car than its competitors - True that some of its ICE competition will be more track capable but most of us don't care - I go back to Model T vs horse argument. Yes the horse can jump over barriers and some folk would have really wanted that because every weekend they would have taken their pride and joy horse for a ride off-road over various barriers just for a thrill.
The other significant point here is how one could even consider a Tesla M3 against ICE track champions - surely they are not in the same league right? WRONG - because a majority of track capable car buyers buy those cars for daily commute rather than weekend fun at the track. That again is normal logic - not many people will be able to keep a 60k car garaged up just for weekend fun. Besides, one can enjoy their 0-60 performance and handling while commuting to work, c'mon isn't that what usually happens? What Tesla has also managed to achieve is to break the tail pipe dominance on the street - that is no mean feat I tell you. So the next time you are driving your Tesla PXXD and you come up against a tractor sounding ICE racer with 10 badges and and equal number of tail pipes, you can just smile and be on your way knowing if you put your foot down, they will not even have time to reach for their gear before you reach the speed limit or next color lights that is
So to summarize - Tesla M3 PXXD will indeed be a great performing car and a much better choice (for most) compared to ICE track capable alternatives - for all intents and purposes .
Nuff said.
The other significant point here is how one could even consider a Tesla M3 against ICE track champions - surely they are not in the same league right? WRONG - because a majority of track capable car buyers buy those cars for daily commute rather than weekend fun at the track. That again is normal logic - not many people will be able to keep a 60k car garaged up just for weekend fun. Besides, one can enjoy their 0-60 performance and handling while commuting to work, c'mon isn't that what usually happens? What Tesla has also managed to achieve is to break the tail pipe dominance on the street - that is no mean feat I tell you. So the next time you are driving your Tesla PXXD and you come up against a tractor sounding ICE racer with 10 badges and and equal number of tail pipes, you can just smile and be on your way knowing if you put your foot down, they will not even have time to reach for their gear before you reach the speed limit or next color lights that is
So to summarize - Tesla M3 PXXD will indeed be a great performing car and a much better choice (for most) compared to ICE track capable alternatives - for all intents and purposes .
Nuff said.
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I would never take any car to a track (except I did some ADAC courses to try to become a better driver).
I just want to drive from A to B, and the Tesla numbers I posted in this thread is from normal Autobahn driving, except a bit on the short side.
Mind you that Autobahn driving is a quite significant part of the driving "value proposition", see e.g. the presentation discussed in this thread:
Most excellent lecture: "Precisely Why The Tesla Model 3 Will Upend The Global Auto Industry"
I am not even sure if the presenter fully understands what Autobahn driving means, e.g. overtaking a police car that has its emergency lights on with the cruise control set to 240 km/h. Or driving (or was that a friend?) the car with a tow-bar with three bicycles, reaching an _average_ fuel consumption of 1 liter diesel per minute.
Maybe that is not typical driving even by German standards, but driving for just a couple of hours at pretty much full throttle should _not_ be a problem.
My ICE has a measly 240 kW engine and a pathetic efficiency, if we say 25% then that is 180 kW heating.
Still, with its monstrosity of a cooler the car has no problem with overheating, it can drive at full speed for hours (granted, traffic permitting so typically at night where it is cooler).
With its about 90% efficiency, a P85D delivering its 515 kW (from the battery) would only produce on the order of 50 kW heating, and I think it is quite important that the car can manage heating at that level for more than a dozen minutes - at least if Tesla wants to prove itself on the German market.
If it has 250kW of motor power and 25% efficiency, 250kW is what it puts out mechanically, 750kW is heat. The whole system has a power of 1000kW, but most of it is conversion to heat, rather than rotation. But heat build up is a problem in electric cars. The thing is, that for vary high power, you will need to cool it. Cooling would be easy, just get a big radiator, but that would limit the cars efficiency.
The other question would be, what is it that can't handle the power, is it the inverter, the motor, or the battery? Cooling the motor should be easy, just increase the coolant flow and reduce the coolant temperature. If it's the battery, well, I don't know. I am no expert on batteries. I have found a website of a company that does research on Li-S cells. They promise high energy densities, 450Wh per kg, 500 per liter, and a 5C continuous discharge rate in 2018/19. I guess we will have to see where the future Tesla cell will land. Todays cells might not be perfect, since they still rely pretty much on a concept, used for mobile devices, which don't really need much power.
I'd say well see a big jump in practicality for the future Tesla cells. They will be the first cells Tesla uses that will be built to their needs, rather than just adopted for their needs.
Ah you took your own advice and changed your position after reading the thread. Glad you got that cleared up.
"Everyone" is not interested in tracking their Tesla. A very small fraction of all buyers would like to do that. Which is fine, and I hope that in the future Tesla improves the drivetrain cooling systems to allow that type of use to some degree. But I do not expect Tesla to offer an optional "Track Package" with improved cooling because such an option will have a negligible impact on sales volume.
At this point in the evolution of EVs, building systems into the car to allow it to run at maximum or near maximum power output is an extremely expensive thing to do, as evidenced by the cost of a Formula E race car (not a completely fair comparison, of course, but some of the cost of those race cars has to do with the need for cooling the drivetrain). I'm sure that in the future the cost will come down, but right now Tesla has more important things to focus on.
Garlan Garner
Banned
What? I haven't changed my position on anything.
I've never been a track person. I know that the MS can perform on the track though. I know that it does well on the track, however it's not a full out track car.
You sure did. Your previous position was based on the assumption that everyone wanted to track their Tesla. That was obviously incorrect.
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