4680 batteries, what is the advantage?

[JRP3]

So if the CT is actually going to go into production in 2023 Q1, then Elon needs to be more transparent and less secretive

Demand is so high Elon doesn't need to do anything other than start producing them.

 

[Taeser]

This guy definitely getting fired. Determine time of screenshot, view Security cameras, ask everyone, and see who is good at lying

 

[StealthP3D]

You guys are pretty optimistic, I'm guessing they will produce a car that uses less cells, weighs less, has the same range/specs, and will use the added margin to further the company. Then in a few they can increase the number of cells to increase range should they need to. "Same with less."

I agree with your analysis but I'm not sure why you label the idea that 4680's will make for longer range "optimistic". I like cars that are not overweight and that's what draws me to a car like the Model 3 vs., for example, the Ford Mach-e with it's less than inspiring handling.

Using 4680's to decrease weight and cost would be most advantageous for the mission and for Tesla's long-term competitive position. Having more range than 300-350 miles is not the big benefit that people who have no experience travelling on the Supercharger network assume. Even 150 miles between charging stops is great. Thats two to almost three hours of travel and I'm ready for a 15 minute charge stop. People driving cars are not long-haul truckers and tend to not travel like long-haul truckers. But this is a favorite narrative of the anti-EV crowd. They love to tell us how they drive 6 hours non-stop all the time and how important that is to motorists. But, in actuality, that is less than 1% of all motorists.

More range is good for visiting really remote spots where the charging infrastructure hasn't reached yet but those places are becoming fewer every year.

Those who have a lot of experience travelling by Superchargers and using destination charging so they wake up with a "full tank" know that 350 miles of range is plenty and will only get better as the Supercharger network continues to fill-in and destination chargers become the norm instead of the exception. The world is changing more quickly than we can see from our static viewpoints and a car is a 5 to10 year purchase for most people.

 

[Terminator857]

Sorry for the poor quality of this image, but it represents 4680 battery production in Fremont on 22 January 2022. Green represents good batteries and red is for rejects. As you can see, on that day they had 14 machines running and produced 92% good batteries, including the 82% bad batteries from Machine 212 which I believe was being used that day to train folks from Texas And who will be producing them there in the future.

I was also informed that when this production chart was shared with me a few days ago, that there are over 1 million batteries sitting in a warehouse somewhere waiting to become part of the Model Y structural battery pack Being produced in Texas.

Kudos go out to a close relative of mine, one of the many employees building the 4680’s in Fremont.


View attachment 765001

Suggest a dedicated post for this. Very good info.

 

[Fiver]

I agree with your analysis but I'm not sure why you label the idea that 4680's will make for longer range "optimistic". I like cars that are not overweight and that's what draws me to a car like the Model 3 vs., for example, the Ford Mach-e with it's less than inspiring handling.

Using 4680's to decrease weight and cost would be most advantageous for the mission and for Tesla's long-term competitive position. Having more range than 300-350 miles is not the big benefit that people who have no experience travelling on the Supercharger network assume. Even 150 miles between charging stops is great. Thats two to almost three hours of travel and I'm ready for a 15 minute charge stop. People driving cars are not long-haul truckers and tend to not travel like long-haul truckers. But this is a favorite narrative of the anti-EV crowd. They love to tell us how they drive 6 hours non-stop all the time and how important that is to motorists. But, in actuality, that is less than 1% of all motorists.

More range is good for visiting really remote spots where the charging infrastructure hasn't reached yet but those places are becoming fewer every year.

Those who have a lot of experience travelling by Superchargers and using destination charging so they wake up with a "full tank" know that 350 miles of range is plenty and will only get better as the Supercharger network continues to fill-in and destination chargers become the norm instead of the exception. The world is changing more quickly than we can see from our static viewpoints and a car is a 5 to10 year purchase for most people.

The existing cars are selling just fine with the range they currently offer. The competition (in the same price range) doesn't really have the same range, or the same charging network. 4680 allows them to produce a car for cheaper that they will sell at the same price. Should they need to add range they can add cells, but honestly the less cells used per car means extra cells to make more cars. They want to sell cars, not less cars with more range.

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

I haven't seen any indication that the 4680 pack can be configured with more or less cells so I'd expect the Model Y to continue with the one-pack-fits-all methodology until 4680 LFP cells are available for a lower cost/range version.

 

[JRP3]

I'd imagine structural packs could have versions with dummy cells installed for less capacity but I wouldn't be surprised if the new Y comes with more range at a higher price point for a while while the 2170 versions stay the same.

 

[MontyFloyd]

Perhaps everyone is missing something:
How many 4680 will fit inside the pack?
People may be assuming the 4680 will be packed in as tightly as 2170, perhaps for various reasons (eg: cooling) it needs more space to fit?

 

[JRP3]

Well they are taller so will have more capacity in the same horizontal area anyway.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Perhaps everyone is missing something:
How many 4680 will fit inside the pack?
People may be assuming the 4680 will be packed in as tightly as 2170, perhaps for various reasons (eg: cooling) it needs more space to fit?

Cooling will be top and bottom. That's allowed by the shift to the tabless cell. If anything that should slightly improve the horizontal packing as they won't have a cooling snake, just the adhesive.

Theoretical maximum packing efficiency for cylinders is independent of radius. It's pi x sqrt(3) / 6.

 

[NYMY]

Perhaps everyone is missing something:
How many 4680 will fit inside the pack?
People may be assuming the 4680 will be packed in as tightly as 2170, perhaps for various reasons (eg: cooling) it needs more space to fit?

They've shown pictures of the battery pack which appears to have 960 cells. People have done estimates based on the "5x more energy" number, but that's not precise. Indeed, they could have dummy cells in there. I am hoping they just fill it out.

 

[JRP3]

Cooling will be top and bottom.

It was regular ribbon side cooling in the Berlin mockup.

 

[MontyFloyd]

I watched Sandy Munro's (and Co) teardown of the MS Plaid battery pack, which had some new stuff, but the battery was not that unique.
It just occurred to me the teardown of an Austin MY will be far more revealing.

 

[origingalatic]

Those numbers are assuming using the same battery pack, less cells will be used for 4680. But here we are in 2022, structural battery pack in model Y. No one knows how many 4680 will fit, not even Munro (until he has one in his shop for tear down)

 

[Roy_H]

Sorry for the poor quality of this image, but it represents 4680 battery production in Fremont on 22 January 2022. Green represents good batteries and red is for rejects. As you can see, on that day they had 14 machines running and produced 92% good batteries, including the 82% bad batteries from Machine 212 which I believe was being used that day to train folks from Texas And who will be producing them there in the future.

I was also informed that when this production chart was shared with me a few days ago, that there are over 1 million batteries sitting in a warehouse somewhere waiting to become part of the Model Y structural battery pack Being produced in Texas.

Kudos go out to a close relative of mine, one of the many employees building the 4680’s in Fremont.


View attachment 765001

I don't believe this, it must be fake. According to this there are 14 production lines and all I have ever heard of is that Kato Rd has a single production line. Kato Rd. was never meant to be a major manufacturing site, just a development site so the production line could be replicated at Berlin and Austin. The production numbers indicated in the graph are absurdly low, the highest one is 926 cells/day. From what I understand, Tesla is running 2 shifts there, so that means one line can produce cells at about 1 per minute. Elon said the cells would come off the production line like machine gun bullets. If this is true then this is a massive failure. The target production for Kato Rd is 10GWhr/yr. If all 14 lines performed at the highest rate of 926 cells/day then that would be about 400MWh/yr or 1/25th of target production.

 

[Roy_H]

It was regular ribbon side cooling in the Berlin mockup.

No, I don't think so. That strip was simply an insulator with no internal cooling capability. Between the strips the cells are wired in parallel so if the body of the cells contact each other there is no voltage between them. But these groups of cells are wired in series with the group beside, so there is a voltage between the groups.

 

[JRP3]

They are very obviously cooling tubes. Also notice adjacent cells in direct contact with each other:

 

[tangible1]

I haven't seen any indication that the 4680 pack can be configured with more or less cells so I'd expect the Model Y to continue with the one-pack-fits-all methodology until 4680 LFP cells are available for a lower cost/range version.

What would make you think Tesla cannot build battery packs configured fully, or partially, to their need?
Why would they go out of their way to tell anyone? Note that they have NOT, as that plays to their advantage, keeping the hype alive.

It would be as simple as using inert cylinders in place of active batteries. Or, they could just place batteries in a pattern that keeps the structural integrity.
Not rocket science...and Tesla (SpaceX) seems to have mastered that, so......

 

[Roy_H]

They are very obviously cooling tubes. Also notice adjacent cells in direct contact with each other:

I guess we just differ. I did say staggered row, maybe double row would be a better description. Anyhow I maintain that the cells touching each other are wired in parallel so no voltage between them. One of the brilliant design features is that both positive and negative connections are at the top of the cell. The other thing is that both of these pictures come from the Berlin GigaFactory showing the cells on display, yet they appear to be completely different arrangement. Take your pick.

 

[JRP3]

Remember that both pictures are missing the structural adhesive which would presumably encase all the cells and isolate them where space allows.

I guess we just differ.

Are you saying those hose fittings aren't for liquid coolant?