5-15 110V garage wall outlet range anxiety or nothing to worry about ?

[1plavs]

PlugShare- 6 miles away
Supercharger-30 miles away
Future supercharger 2022- 13 miles away

Roundtrip to and from office- 22 miles, currently still working from home. Rarely drive anywhere weekday nights.

Weekend driving 50-75 miles Saturday & Sunday with an occasional trip to Chicago - 120 miles

SE WI winters are quite harsh, but do I really have anything to worry about?

My electrician spoke to the inspector and told him I would need a $2k panel upgrade and a 14-50 Nema isn’t an option in my case. In fact my current 100amp should really be 135amp.

With the MY never really going in sleep mode what should I be worried about as far as my electrical bill goes?

Will I still be able to precondition in the winter?

 

[sgalla04]

In the long run and knowing that my range and charging time will significantly impacted here in SE WI with a Tesla and knowing that I’ll be using a 5-15 outlet and PlugShare/Supercharger when necessary…..is the MY still my best bet vs let’s a Rav4 Prime? Considering costs, gas vs electric power and maintenance over time.

That is really just a personal decision. The RAV4-Prime with the tax rebate is significantly less expensive than the MY. So the question shouldn't be about cost. The MY will most likely cost more strictly because of the sticker minus rebate.

• Cost of Gas vs. Electric: ICE most expensive > PHEV less expensive > BEV MY the least expensive
• Cost of Maintenance: ICE and PHEV I'm not sure since they both still need oil changes, the PHEV in the long run might actually be higher maintenance cost because now you have all of the electric components plus all of the moving parts. Probably more of an issue post the covered warranty period. > BEV MY will be significantly less.

Just youtube some videos of ICE vs. MY total cost of ownership. Some have done a great job spelling it all out there. But they normally compare apples to apples with the MY and the RAV4-Prime is not in the same category. The RAV4-Prime will be less total cost of ownership. The MY compares to BMW 3 series, Volvo PHEVs, Mercedes C class.

Even though staying with my Outlander PHEV will cost less than buying a new MY, that isn't why I am switching. Going green, less noise, less maintenance, I like new tech, the interface, the UX, over-the-air updates, etc. It is the car I have always wanted and now that I can afford it, I should treat myself, so I am.

 

[1plavs]

That is really just a personal decision. The RAV4-Prime with the tax rebate is significantly less expensive than the MY. So the question shouldn't be about cost. The MY will most likely cost more strictly because of the sticker minus rebate.

• Cost of Gas vs. Electric: ICE most expensive > PHEV less expensive > BEV MY the least expensive
• Cost of Maintenance: ICE and PHEV I'm not sure since they both still need oil changes, the PHEV in the long run might actually be higher maintenance cost because now you have all of the electric components plus all of the moving parts. Probably more of an issue post the covered warranty period. > BEV MY will be significantly less.

Just youtube some videos of ICE vs. MY total cost of ownership. Some have done a great job spelling it all out there. But they normally compare apples to apples with the MY and the RAV4-Prime is not in the same category. The RAV4-Prime will be less total cost of ownership. The MY compares to BMW 3 series, Volvo PHEVs, Mercedes C class.

Even though staying with my Outlander PHEV will cost less than buying a new MY, that isn't why I am switching. Going green, less noise, less maintenance, I like new tech, the interface, the UX, over-the-air updates, etc. It is the car I have always wanted and now that I can afford it, I should treat myself, so I am.

That’s exactly my mindset. I do have some drawbacks with using a 5-15, but there are ways around it. My biggest fear when range gets so low in the freezing winter and using a 5-15 means absolutely nothing.

 

[jcanoe]

That’s exactly my mindset. I do have some drawbacks with using a 5-15, but there are ways around it. My biggest fear when range gets so low in the freezing winter and using a 5-15 means absolutely nothing.

You won't have any issue with a cold battery pack if you plug in as soon as you arrive home. The battery pack weighs ~1000 lbs. That is a large thermal mass, once warm the battery pack stays warm for hours. Once the battery pack has been warmed to at least 50F the vehicle can charge. The worst that would happen is the Tesla's battery management system would periodically warm the battery pack from a temperature of ~40F to 45F back up to 50F while charging. This would slightly extend the time needed to charge but you might not even notice.

The Tesla owners who have reported issues with the Tesla battery pack being too cold to charge have let the Tesla vehicle sit with a low SOC without being charged or cold soaked outdoors and then complain that they can't charge using 120V/15A.

 

[1plavs]

You won't have any issue with a cold battery pack if you plug in as soon as you arrive home. The battery pack weighs ~1000 lbs. That is a large thermal mass, once warm the battery pack stays warm for hours. Once the battery pack has been warmed to at least 50F the vehicle can charge. The worst that would happen is the Tesla's battery management system would periodically warm the battery pack from a temperature of ~40F to 45F back up to 50F while charging. This would slightly extend the time needed to charge but you might not even notice.

The Tesla owners who have reported issues with the Tesla battery pack being too cold to charge have let the Tesla vehicle sit with a low SOC without being charged or cold soaked outdoors and then complain that they can't charge using 120V/15A.

Makes sense. In my scenario should I leave the cable plugged in the MY at all times? In the winter I definitely will, but what about summer when I have enough range and really don’t need to charge.

 

[jcanoe]

Makes sense. In my scenario should I leave the cable plugged in the MY at all times? In the winter I definitely will, but what about summer when I have enough range and really don’t need to charge.

In summer you will be using less of the battery so you won't need 12 hours or more each day to charge. Tesla recommends leaving the vehicle plugged in. As a habit it probably makes sense to continue to plug in once you arrive home. Even if you plug in for 2 hours and then run a quick errand in the Tesla plugging and unplugging only takes a few seconds.

 

[sgalla04]

Makes sense. In my scenario should I leave the cable plugged in the MY at all times? In the winter I definitely will, but what about summer when I have enough range and really don’t need to charge.

Elon says a happy Tesla is a plugged in Tesla. Set it to charge to 80% in the summer and 90% in the winter. Plug it in everyday to make it a habit. Unless its summer and you only drove a few miles or something, but even then it's no big deal to just plug it in again.

 

[1plavs]

In summer you will be using less of the battery so you won't need 12 hours or more each day to charge. Tesla recommends leaving the vehicle plugged in. As a habit it probably makes sense to continue to plug in once you arrive home. Even if you plug in for 2 hours and then run a quick errand in the Tesla plugging and unplugging only takes a few seconds.

My electrician is now saying that we have two phases, there is 100amps on each phase. So we will be ok. And if we want a permit pulled, he can pull one. But he thinks we don’t need one, and we will also have the contract from him. With a warranty.

My question is this …when we sell the house in 4-5 years ….won’t the inspector as why we didn’t pull a permit for the 14-50? I would think that could mean fines, etc….

 

[jcanoe]

The home buyer would probably hire a home inspector. The home inspection report would identify any deficiencies including electrical. You could satisfy the buyer by correcting the issues or just pay the buyer with some money towards the needed repairs. I don't think you would face any fines. The issue is with your homeowner's insurance should there be a fire that can be traced to the non-permitted electrical improvements. The insurance company would probably deny any claim.

 

[zpaul]

In the long run and knowing that my range and charging time will significantly impacted here in SE WI with a Tesla and knowing that I’ll be using a 5-15 outlet and PlugShare/Supercharger when necessary…..is the MY still my best bet vs let’s a Rav4 Prime? Considering costs, gas vs electric power and maintenance over time.

In my view. Tesla holds its value better than other cars. loaded Prime becomes $44k. Cheaper than Tesla, but you have more maintenance + gas cost.
I am new to Tesla but I enjoy it so far and do not look back. Also Tesla always feels new because of software releases. I had Honda Ridgeline before and infortainment was the same as I got it in 2017. So you are pretty much stuck with same stuff on Rav4. No Tesla Cam either.

 

[1plavs]

The home buyer would probably hire a home inspector. The home inspection report would identify any deficiencies including electrical. You could satisfy the buyer by correcting the issues or just pay the buyer with some money towards the needed repairs. I don't think you would face any fines. The issue is with your homeowner's insurance should there be a fire that can be traced to the non-permitted electrical improvements. The insurance company would probably deny any claim.

Correct! This is why I think (as bad as it my be sometimes) sticking to the 5-15 with the overall low miles that I drive makes the most sense. Would you agree? I mean technically I really don’t need 30 miles an hour. 10-15 miles an hour would sure be nice, but still technically not really needed.

 

[jcanoe]

Correct! This is why I think (as bad as it my be sometimes) sticking to the 5-15 with the overall low miles that I drive makes the most sense. Would you agree? I mean technically I really don’t need 30 miles an hour. 10-15 miles an hour would sure be nice, but still technically not really needed.

In your situation I would start out charging at 120V/15A for at least 6 months to a year (including over the winter) then revisit the option of upgrading your panel, installing a 240V, 40A or 50A circuit for charging the Tesla. (The code allows for 14-50 receptacle to be protected by either a 40A or 50A circuit breaker.)

 

[1plavs]

In your situation I would start out charging at 120V/15A for at least 6 months to a year (including over the winter) then revisit the option of upgrading your panel, installing a 240V, 40A or 50A circuit for charging the Tesla.

14-50 would make the most sense at that point or what about a Tesla wall connector since you can dial it to what you want plus they have a Tax rebate I think of around 30%.

 

[sgalla04]

Correct! This is why I think (as bad as it my be sometimes) sticking to the 5-15 with the overall low miles that I drive makes the most sense. Would you agree? I mean technically I really don’t need 30 miles an hour. 10-15 miles an hour would sure be nice, but still technically not really needed.

Yes, worst case scenario is you have a road trip planned, but you drove so much the day before and got home late. So you wake up to leave at only 75% SOC. It just means hitting up the supercharger 45 min. earlier than you expected and waiting an additional 10 more minutes of charging plus a few extra $. Essentially getting to your destination maybe 20-30 min. later than you had originally expected. Watch something on Netflix, play a game, grab a coffee.

 

[jcanoe]

14-50 would make the most sense at that point or what about a Tesla wall connector since you can dial it to what you want plus they have a Tax rebate I think of around 30%.

The Wall Connector is another option, can be configured during setup for different circuits up to 60A. The Wall Connector is unnecessary since you are installing the charging setup inside a garage the NEMA 14-50 receptacle (40A or 50A) or the NEMA 14-30 (30A dryer circuit) would work well too.

Research IRS form 8911 and consult with your tax advisor. You may be able to claim the 30% tax credit for the installation of the charging circuit and receptacle such as the 14-50. If you purchase the Wall Connector ($500) you would be able to claim the tax credit. The Tesla 14-50 power plug adapter for the Mobile Connector costs $45, the other power plug adapters only cost $35.

 

[sgalla04]

In your situation I would start out charging at 120V/15A for at least 6 months to a year (including over the winter) then revisit the option of upgrading your panel, installing a 240V, 40A or 50A circuit for charging the Tesla. (The code allows for 14-50 receptacle to be protected by either a 40A or 50A circuit breaker.)

I do not believe you can protect a 14-50 with a lower amperage breaker. That is a fire risk because the car only knows the adapter connection and not the circuit breaker. It will try and draw a continuous 40 amps. The 40 amp breaker should trip since its above 80% its threshold, but if it doesn't, then wires and connections start to get really hot.

You can install a 14-50 on a 60 amp breaker no problem. This is actually the setup I am recommending to my friend. He just ordered a MS and needs to run a line from his basement. But he knows his wife wants a M3 in a year or 2. So he is going to just install a 14-50 on a 60 amp breaker and get the wall connector later when his wife get the M3.

 

[1plavs]

I do not believe you can protect a 14-50 with a lower amperage breaker. That is a fire risk because the car only knows the adapter connection and not the circuit breaker. It will try and draw a continuous 40 amps. The 40 amp breaker should trip since its above 80% its threshold, but if it doesn't, then wires and connections start to get really hot.

With my current 100 amp service knowing that even without the Tesla it should be 135 amp should I avoid any electrician that says he can install a 14-50 outlet no problem and no risk?

I had a few electricians tell me that a panel upgrade is 100% needed so I’m trying to figure out who really to believe ….the person who wants a couple thousand dollar panel upgrade or the qualified electrician who is telling you that they can put in a 14-50 no problem. But again the risk comes in if I’m sleeping at night and a fire occurs the insurance will not cover that without a permit.

 

[jcanoe]

I do not believe you can protect a 14-50 with a lower amperage breaker. That is a fire risk because the car only knows the adapter connection and not the circuit breaker. It will try and draw a continuous 40 amps. The 40 amp breaker should trip since its above 80% its threshold, but if it doesn't, then wires and connections start to get really hot.

You can install a 14-50 on a 60 amp breaker no problem.

The NEC allows for installing a 40A breaker on a circuit with a 14-50 receptacle as there is no specific receptacle made for 40A. The receptacle would be labeled 240V/40A to avoid any confusion. In any event the Tesla Mobile Connector would never allow more than 32A to be passed from the 14-50 receptacle so this still conforms to the 80% limit when charging a plug-in vehicle.

 

[jcanoe]

With my current 100 amp service knowing that even without the Tesla it should be 135 amp should I avoid any electrician that says he can install a 14-50 outlet no problem and no risk?

I had a few electricians tell me that a panel upgrade is 100% needed so I’m trying to figure out who really to believe ….the person who wants a couple thousand dollar panel upgrade or the qualified electrician who is telling you that they can put in a 14-50 no problem. But again the risk comes in if I’m sleeping at night and a fire occurs the insurance will not cover that without a permit.

I would tend to believe the electrician(s) who are telling you that you need to upgrade the service panel.

 

[sgalla04]

With my current 100 amp service knowing that even without the Tesla it should be 135 amp should I avoid any electrician that says he can install a 14-50 outlet no problem and no risk?

I had a few electricians tell me that a panel upgrade is 100% needed so I’m trying to figure out who really to believe ….the person who wants a couple thousand dollar panel upgrade or the qualified electrician who is telling you that they can put in a 14-50 no problem. But again the risk comes in if I’m sleeping at night and a fire occurs the insurance will not cover that without a permit.

Can you send us a picture of your open panel? There are ways to split connections and make some additional "space". Adding an additional 50 amps on an already full panel seems unlikely, but until you show the forum, we can't really help.

 

[1plavs]

Can you send us a picture of your open panel? There are ways to split connections and make some additional "space". Adding an additional 50 amps on an already full panel seems unlikely, but until you show the forum, we can't really help.

The wiring would come from downstairs and out where the radon gas pipe is. Are these pics ok?