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50% battery left, 75D, only 30.5 kWh used

Discussion in 'Model S' started by Dbj77, Jun 11, 2017.

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  1. Dbj77

    Dbj77 Member

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    Can someone explain this one? I upgraded this past week from the 60 to 75, so I could go on a roadtrip. Got to try out a supercharger for the first time, which was awesome. Given that I charged to 100% and drove for awhile, I dropped down to 55% and was tracking the "since last charged" mileage and kWh used. At 55%, I had used up only 30.5 kWh. That makes it seem like I will only use a little over 60 before I get to zero. Shouldn't it be 75?
     
  2. croman

    croman Active Member

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    wk057 tested the 75 and its around 72.6 with buffer (4kWh). So usable kWh is 68 something at best.

    So, as it turns out, the 75 upgrade is really a bit over 10kWh extra instead of the 15kWh Tesla indicates.
     
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  3. anonim1979

    anonim1979 Member

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    #3 anonim1979, Jun 11, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2017
    (AFAIK) No.

    75/75D - 75 kWh total capacity, 72.6 kWh usable
    (due to "2.4 kWh bottom lockout")

    Edit. Ninjaed :)
    Edit2. ^2 by post delete...

    -----
    @OP
    Drive it to 0% then you will know. The range is only approximation made by BMS voltages, etc.
    Some people made quite a few miles at "0%".
     
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  4. azred

    azred Member

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    Yep, that's how I read wk057. The buffers differ and the 4 cited in the other post is accurate for an 85 but buffer is only 2.4 for a 75 as you stated. Of course it is also true the 60 to 75 upgrade is only a bit more than 10 as the other post notes.
     
  5. azred

    azred Member

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    72.6 rather than 75. As for why your results are quite different, I'll let others speculate why.
     
  6. No2DinosaurFuel

    No2DinosaurFuel Active Member

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    the unlock of the 60 to 75 is not really worth it. Like others have said, you get roughly an additional 10KWh usable.

    However if you understand how you would use that extra 10KWh, you would probably not ever use it and therefore would never ever unlock it.

    The extra 10KWh is only useful at the beginning of a road trip each day assuming you have overnight charging to 100%. This equates to around maybe an extra 33 miles at the beginning of the day assuming around 300wh/mile energy consumption.

    During a road trip, no one really stays extra 30 - 45 minutes at a supercharging station to charge from 80% to 100% before leaving for the next supercharging stations. Most of the time you would probably stop charging at 85% to 90% if you really need it to make to the next one. Therefore you would never see the the benefit of the extra 10KWh during road trips charging.

    I have to reiterate the cost benefit of the 75KWh upgrade. It is really there to make tesla some money and is in very few ways useful to the consumer. If the upgrade was $500, then it might be worth it. But at $2000, it's totally not worth the extra 33 miles occasionally during road trips at the beginning of the day each day of the road trip.
     
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  7. Dbj77

    Dbj77 Member

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    Why did you get a 90D then? Surely you did a cost-benefit analysis at time of purchase and chose the higher capacity battery? Although I see your point regarding the upgrade. For me it was to alleviate range anxiety, and specifically to have more buffer when driving through the hills of Virginia aimlessly on a Sunday afternoon, not particularly going anywhere.
     
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  8. ShockOnT

    ShockOnT ⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️

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    It's worth it to me because it allows me to stray farther from Australia's sparse charging network.
    It also adds resale value to the car. Most people would pay more for a 75D than a 60D (or my old 70D).
     
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  9. croman

    croman Active Member

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    The 75 upgrade was invaluable to me as it allows me to avoid a supercharger that is way out of the way. 10kWh isn't the 15 Tesla says, but its still 10kWh more than I had before. I think on road trips is when I see most of the benefit but I also can get away with charging one fewer day each week. I mean, that 10kWh is almost 40% of my Leaf's entire battery capacity.

    I think Tesla should be more honest but the 85kWh battery pack people have even more to complain about I guess.
     
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  10. ShockOnT

    ShockOnT ⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️

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    To OP: the percentage is actually a guess-o-meter, just as much as the rated or typical miles is.
    The battery might really have 60% left when it's showing 55%.
    The coders who wrote the software probably haven't perfectly catered for the scenario of increasing capacity on the fly.
    It should calibrate over time.
    (Educated guess, nothing more).
     
  11. azred

    azred Member

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    Not worth $2000? It was $9000 5 months ago and then $7000 for a few months until reduced to $2000, so I guess it was really a rip off before? It will be interesting to see the upcharge for batteries in the Model 3. (I think the upgrade is $4500 for the X still.)
     
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  12. Snowstorm

    Snowstorm Member

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    I believe the reason 60->75 isn't as valuable as 15kWH or even 10kWh is because much of the benefit of the extra 10kWh is already there before the upgrade. Because the 60 is really a software limited 75, you already have the benefit of being able to charge it to 100% each day without fear of premature degradation and supercharger taper off doesn't occur as soon as a true 60.

    The upgrade is still useful, just not worth as much as it seems. This is not because the 75 is no good, but because the software limited 60 is so much better than a real 60.
     
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  13. Ulmo

    Ulmo Active Member

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    Yup; read @wk057's posts about this. He gives the numbers. The $2,000 upgrade will give us a solid 10kW more to work with at the top end. That's certainly something, but it's not the model numbers being used as engineering facts.
     
  14. No2DinosaurFuel

    No2DinosaurFuel Active Member

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    #14 No2DinosaurFuel, Jun 11, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2017
    Why 90D? because it had the highest range at the time I got it. If the 100D was out then, I would've gotten the 100D. I wanted my car to be a really good road tripping machine. The 90D allows for faster supercharging compared to the 60D/75D. As for alleviating range anxiety, I don't think it does at least not during road trips. I guess if you do one shot trip like what you said, it does give you an extra 30-40 miles buffer which might mean the difference between arriving home vs running out of battery. If you were to use the 10KWh only on the weekend, that can equate to 52 100% charges annually which is pretty bad for the car IMO even if you use it right away. If you don't do it that often, then why pay the $2000 for the occasional trip? Seems like that $2000 can buy quite a bit of supercharging for those occasional trip when the Model 3 comes out.

    Sure it can add resale value for people with little understanding of the Model S 60D/75D. For informed buyer, I highly doubt it adds anything especially when tesla dropped the upgrade price recently. Why should they pay more for the 75D when they can pick up the 60D and upgrade themselves. However given if they really understood what the upgrade meant, they are probably less inclined to pick up the 75D and just pick up the 60D and call it a day. Also you do know the "stray farther from supercharging network" is really 15-20 miles right if you count round trip.

    Did you read my post on how most people will never get to use it on road trips?

    Yes it's a rip off before and still is. I think the right price is probably less than $1000 IMO for the value added. Again this is base on how much you can actually use that extra capacity. And only in rare instances can you actually use it.

    Exactly what I am trying to say. People here just don't quite understand charging, battery, and such. I guess it is the same everywhere. If you are an informed buyer, you can get more of your money's worth.
     
  15. Ulmo

    Ulmo Active Member

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    #15 Ulmo, Jun 11, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2017
    This is all mostly correct.

    In my case, the $2,000 would be worth it, since it would enable me to get to the end of a chain of SuperChargers, charge to 100%, go do a bunch of stuff off of the SuperCharger network, then drive back to the SuperCharger network and get back into the chain again. I often have trouble making the distance once I fall off the chain, and this last few dozen miles would make a big difference to me.

    But, for most people who don't have these large runs away from the SuperCharger network, this extra 10kW at the top end is almost never useful, or never useful.

    There are definitely edge cases where it would be useful even within SuperCharger network or within regular home area use, such as: SuperChargers originally placed far apart; winter driving; windy weather; errands between SuperChargers (similar to my use case above); and errands close to home (be sure not to let the car sit at high state of charge during early errands (if you made this error, immediately drive up some mountains to deplete your battery fast before stopping your car)). But even then, those are rare, and for instance windy weather is hard to know about beforehand. It's better for your car not to upgrade 60->75 than to upgrade and damage the battery by charging to 100% too often, unless you really need it sometimes, and that is rare if at all, as @No2DinosaurFuel said.

    I'm selling my car, and I actually consider the top-end buffer a feature for the buyer, since they would not have to worry about charging to 100% in a 60, but if they did the upgrade, then suddenly they have to always limit their charging to around 80% - 90%. Nevertheless, I'm offering to take an extra $2,000 to immediately upgrade the car before sale if they want it.
     
  16. No2DinosaurFuel

    No2DinosaurFuel Active Member

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    I guess your use case can be useful if you unlock, but still staying an extra 30-45 minutes just to get that extra 30-40 miles? I think I rather just charge to 65% then come back 1/2 way through my errand to charge 10 minutes more and finish my run unless your errand run somehow happens to make it such that the extra 30-40 miles enables you to complete your errands and get to your overnight charging in one shot.
     
  17. Altes

    Altes Member

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    not understanding all the talk about kwh and such??? there is a 14 mile range difference between the 60 and the 75 per the tesla website. not worth it is and understatement
     
  18. Ulmo

    Ulmo Active Member

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    #18 Ulmo, Jun 11, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2017
    You have good points, but in my extremely rare case (so don't everyone run out and do it):
    • No SuperChargers in my errand locations. (Santa Cruz, San Jose. If Tesla put them there, they'd be overrun.)
    • No SuperChargers in my long distance destinations. (Not enough volume for Tesla to put any SuperChargers there; opposite of Santa/San problem.)
    So, in both cases, there's no "coming back in the middle" to charge up: if I loose power, I'm stuck. I can sometimes use Chademo backups when that's working if I can reach it (not always the case, and almost always way out of my way, and few of them are at great locations -- usually Walmart or someplace bad). Also, I can sometimes use a Level 2, but even that is iffy, since most of the places where I am way off track don't have a lot of Level 2 around, and they tend to be at a point in travel when I don't want to wait. (They're never located in good spots.)

    I haven't tried upgrading yet for this. It might turn out to be more trouble than it's worth. For instance, to SuperCharge to 100% may require more of a walk, more of a break at SuperChargers. I'm already struggling to make that last SuperCharger stop to 100% interesting enough.
     
  19. ShockOnT

    ShockOnT ⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️

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    #19 ShockOnT, Jun 11, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2017
    Because the buyer of the 60D would have to pay $2000 to upgrade it to a 75D.
    So the 75D is worth $2000 more than the 60D.
    Which is what the upgrade cost the original owner.
    Who's been enjoying the benefits of the unlocked battery all this time.
     
  20. whitex

    whitex Active Member

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    Or put another way, you're likely to get a good portion of your money back on the resale end. Let's say the buyer does want a 75D and has 2 choices:
    1. Buy a 60D and pay $2000 to upgrade
    2. Buy a 75D already upgraded for only $1500 more than the 60D

    Option 2 is better for the buyer, and gets the original owner the benefit of the unlock for $500, which is below what @No2DinosaurFuel stated the value is.

    @No2DinosaurFuel, your reasons about how the upgrade is used are absolutely valid, and I gave the same reasons to others in other posts, however, eventually ended up doing the upgrade, mostly because I figured the software limitation may not be fully tested by Tesla (for example, cell balancing will never kick in) and for the above reason that the upgrade is likely to depreciate the same or slower than the base car, unlike other upgrades which depreciate faster (even according to Tesla's own guaranteed value calculator). Things like pano roof or UHFS loose value much faster than a 60-75 upgrade. If you care for a complete list of reasons why I upgraded, even though I fully agree with your assessment, see this post.
     

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