500 + Mile Range Debate

[Mikedfw]

Do you not stop anywhere during the course of the day? What if those locations had chargers? I have a friend that often drives ~400 miles per day for work. They visit various clinics and hospitals in the area. Even L2 at these locations would EASILY make a 200 mile range car more than viable.

I have multiple restaurants that are not close to each other, I go to at least 2 a day, usually more. I have no desire to stop and charge. Why would I want to spend more time charging which just makes my work day longer when, if I had more range on the vehicle, I could just charge at home at night.

Stopping to charge adds time to my day, costs more money and degrades the battery faster. Having to stop and charge your vehicle frequently isn't a good thing, its something you do because you have to. If you want a break, take a break, not everyone wants or needs to spend a lot of time doing that.

This really isn't hard and I've read most of your comments. I dont understand why you are so incapable of seeing someone else's view on this and understanding that your specific needs and/or desires are not universal.

 

[nwdiver]

I have multiple restaurants that are not close to each other, I go to at least 2 a day, usually more.

How long are you at those restaurants? Why not charge at the restaurant?

It's not about 'stopping to charge'... it's about 'charging where you stop'.

 

[Mikedfw]

How long are you at those restaurants? Why not charge at the restaurant?

It's not about 'stopping to charge'... it's about 'charging where you stop'.

The amount of time i spend at each location varies greatly. The restaurants also don't have any type of fast charging/destination charging nor places to put them without a huge monetary investment.

Even if it was an option, I still don't understand why offering a higher range vehicle for more money as an option that costs you personally nothing at all is something you, or anyone, is so strongly opposed to.

 

[nwdiver]

The amount of time i spend at each location varies greatly. The restaurants also don't have any type of fast charging/destination charging nor places to put them without a huge monetary investment.

Even if it was an option, I still don't understand why offering a higher range vehicle for more money as an option that costs you personally nothing at all is something you, or anyone, is so strongly opposed to.

You might be surprised how affordable it is to add charging stations. I added 6 at 3 locations with a Go Fund Me.

I'm just explaining why it probably won't happen and generally isn't necessary.

There is the issue of material supply. We're currently cell constrained and will likely be so for years. Likely at least another 10 years. I would rather see 1M EVs with 250 miles of range than 500k with 500 miles of range. From a resource perspective more charging stations makes A LOT more sense than more range.

 

[Giampigua]

You might be surprised how affordable it is to add charging stations. I added 6 at 3 locations with a Go Fund Me.

I'm just explaining why it probably won't happen and generally isn't necessary.

There is the issue of material supply. We're currently cell constrained and will likely be so for years. Likely at least another 10 years. I would rather see 1M EVs with 250 miles of range than 500k with 500 miles of range. From a resource perspective more charging stations makes A LOT more sense than more range.

You may say that.

Reality might be just the opposite.

Fast charging requires huge concentration of Electricity power that unbalances the distribution network. And it is less efficient for the batteries.

Cells contraints is not existing: this was confirmed by the CEO of the biggest EV producer in the world: certain Elon Musk.

 

[nwdiver]

You may say that.

Reality might be just the opposite.

Fast charging requires huge concentration of Electricity power that unbalances the distribution network. And it is less efficient for the batteries.

Cells contraints is not existing: this was confirmed by the CEO of the biggest EV producer in the world: certain Elon Musk.

Why does the range difference always need to be made up for with L3? In @Mikedfw case it would just be L2 at his restaurants. The efficiency drop from L3 to L2 is less than the efficiency drop from carrying additional battery weight and the overall increase in L3 use would be very small.

Also... yeah... everyone is cell constrained.

yeah... everyone is cell constrained. Turns out that 1MWh semi-trucks soak up a lot of battery capacity and trying to ramp up EV production exponentially means we're going to be supply constrained for years. This Russur thing just made this even worse....

Considering ~40% of nickel supply was just sanctioned off the market things are even worse now than a year ago.

 

[Giampigua]

"Probably ok next year".

Now we are in the "next year"

Tesla doesn't expect constraints in 4680 battery cell supply this year, current production capacity unknown

Tesla gave an update on the status of its in-house production of the 4680 battery cell. The company didn’t want...

electrek.co

On Jan 22 "Tesla does not expect constraints in 4680 battery cell supply this year ..."

 

[nwdiver]

"Probably ok next year".

Now we are in the "next year"

Tesla doesn't expect constraints in 4680 battery cell supply this year, current production capacity unknown

Tesla gave an update on the status of its in-house production of the 4680 battery cell. The company didn’t want...

electrek.co

On Jan 22 "Tesla does not expect constraints in 4680 battery cell supply this year ..."

A lot of 'expectations' changed a month after that was written when Russia was deleted from the global market.

 

[Boza]

You might be surprised how affordable it is to add charging stations. I added 6 at 3 locations with a Go Fund Me.

I'm just explaining why it probably won't happen and generally isn't necessary.

There is the issue of material supply. We're currently cell constrained and will likely be so for years. Likely at least another 10 years. I would rather see 1M EVs with 250 miles of range than 500k with 500 miles of range. From a resource perspective more charging stations makes A LOT more sense than more range.

You are absolutely correct … but in a different way. Yes, the batteries are major constrains for making cars. Hence, the one way to make more cars is by reducing the battery size. The added value of a car is much bigger than the added value for just the battery, so this makes a ton of economic sense.
However, there are quite a few, much cheaper, alternatives at the low battery capacity range of the spectrum. If someone needs a daily driver for the city Leaf (for example) would make much more sense (and more are coming).
On the other hand, range for cars is similar to energy industry - you build for the highest consumption/range, no matter what the base load/daily range is (within limits and with appropriate price structure, of course). So, when families buy cars they look at the longest range they usually need (excluding once-per-year road trip, of course) rather than the daily commute. That is the reason why a lot of people buy hybrid and not EV. Few families could afford a daily commuter and longer trip car - and that is actually bad for the environment.
While one could rent another vehicle for once-per-year road trip, doing that on a regular basis becomes a hassle.
There is also another concern, amplified by the decision to make the batteries a structural part of the vehicle. While that will reduce the production cost, it will make the car disposable based on a non-replaceable part that has limited life. The shorter the range of the car (which necessitates more frequent charges) the shorter the life of the car is.

 

[Giampigua]

A lot of 'expectations' changed a month after that was written when Russia was deleted from the global market.

You mean that you totally agree with me, but you changed your mind when Putin decided to invade Ukraine?

 

[kilpatds]

As far as a can tell, I think they could make more money by selling larger batteries: they get more margin the more expensive the car... I think their margin on the base car is lower than their margin on the battery.

Sure, the difference in value is higher, but not all value you create is value you can charge for.

Edit: selling more cars for less profit is likely a reasonable long term strategy. Making the car common likely works as effective advertising, and keeps future sales demand higher.

 

[Big Earl]

If we take another extreme - super small battery and widely available fast charging. The battery will be degraded very quickly. So, larger battery also prolongs the live of the vehicle (especially now, when they make the battery part of the structure - which is a whole new topic altogether).
I think Elon’s argument is false; in reality, they want to churn as many vehicles as possible and batteries are major constraint. So, smaller batteries - more cars.

Of course Tesla wants to produce as many cars as possible. First principles.

1. More cars means more profit, which in turn grows the company and enables the production of more cars
2. More cars furthers Tesla's mission to transition the world to sustainable energy (and transportation)

Cars with smaller batteries might not serve the needs of every single person, but they get more cars in the hands of people whose needs they do meet. At this point in time, Tesla can't keep up with existing orders, so it makes absolutely no sense for them to produce fewer, longer range cars.

 

[ThomasD]

Some small Town Restaurants don't even have painted lines for parking spaces or paved parking lots. People expect them to have level 2 charging?

 

[Mikedfw]

Some small Town Restaurants don't even have painted lines for parking spaces or paved parking lots. People expect them to have level 2 charging?

For us to do this would require breaking up parts of the concrete parking lot to run electrical and set up the chargers and repave parts of the parking lot afterwords. Not cheap and, having had to have stuff repaved before, the local companies often do poor work that has to be redone. Also, they are franchises and have to go through corporate for approval before we would even be allowed to do it at all.

 

[Boza]

For us to do this would require breaking up parts of the concrete parking lot to run electrical and set up the chargers and repave parts of the parking lot afterwords. Not cheap and, having had to have stuff repaved before, the local companies often do poor work that has to be redone. Also, they are franchises and have to go through corporate for approval before we would even be allowed to do it at all.

I thought that there is some revenue/cost sharing with whoever installs the chargers. How does it actually work?

 

[Boza]

Of course Tesla wants to produce as many cars as possible. First principles.

1. More cars means more profit, which in turn grows the company and enables the production of more cars
2. More cars furthers Tesla's mission to transition the world to sustainable energy (and transportation)

Cars with smaller batteries might not serve the needs of every single person, but they get more cars in the hands of people whose needs they do meet. At this point in time, Tesla can't keep up with existing orders, so it makes absolutely no sense for them to produce fewer, longer range cars.

While I agree with 1, I am not sure if churning as many disposable, short life cars as possible aligns with the environmental concern. That, combined with his recent compensation structure change, leads me to believe that his motives are more economical than environmental.
May be I am too cynical

 

[Mikedfw]

I thought that there is some revenue/cost sharing with whoever installs the chargers. How does it actually work?

I was under the impression that is not the case, at least if it's just wanting to add them in an area they normally wouldn't have enough traffic for.

Maybe I'm wrong. Was a while back when I actually looked at it. Part of the issue too is that I really only have one place thst can spare the parking for it and it is a very rural area, doesn't make a whole lot of sense to spend a lot on it for very, very limited usage.

 

[Boza]

Of course Tesla wants to produce as many cars as possible. First principles.

1. More cars means more profit, which in turn grows the company and enables the production of more cars
2. More cars furthers Tesla's mission to transition the world to sustainable energy (and transportation)

Cars with smaller batteries might not serve the needs of every single person, but they get more cars in the hands of people whose needs they do meet. At this point in time, Tesla can't keep up with existing orders, so it makes absolutely no sense for them to produce fewer, longer range cars.

Tesla may be forced to go lower range with LFP batteries. Because of the war in UA the price of nickel shot through the roof and there are severe shortages. Given their approach to supply shortages (for example, radar chips) I would not be surprised if they accelerate the LFP adoption and completely remove LR+ from their product line.

 

[GreenDriver]

Did Elon say something about this in recent days? I saw someone seemingly allude to such a statement but this may have refferred to his original comment last summer.

I definitely need as longe range a car as possible. I like to road trip, go to parks, go off the beaten path. I prefer to disperse camp. On my very few trips so far I've seen that National Parks have NO EFFECTIVE charging. Their parking lots are chock full of ICE vehicles. And that's the over-commercialized, over visited National Parks. That's before we even get to more peaceful places.

I don't have an alternative car. My Tesla is it. It also makes no sense to me, the expectation that people would have a back up ICE.

You need to be able to go anywhere, in any conditions, or the project fails. When the masses going out to nature are driving ICE, we have a problem. Both increased range and increased charging are needed. All electrons on deck!

 

[nwdiver]

Some small Town Restaurants don't even have painted lines for parking spaces or paved parking lots. People expect them to have level 2 charging?

Like this?

Adding L2 charging is generally cheaper than paving a parking lot. Also... adding a L2 charger is cheaper than an additional 100 miles of range in an EV. The additional range helps that 1 vehicle. That charging stall can help dozens or hundreds of vehicles.