90D time for fixes or lawsuits

[tljdesign]

That is not true, Tesla doesn't use a GOM, Guess-o-meter, it bases the remaining range number based on the estimated charge state and the EPA range estimate.

Is this verified to be true, or just a guess? I think there’s dynamic math because my rates range has gone back up several times. During periods of specific lower wh/mi travel (say over several hundred miles), I will get a few more miles of rated range on a 100% charge (and a 90% charge). Model S 60.

 

[BerTX]

I don't know that there is an "expected" number. But no Tesla won't do anything about your degradation as the warranty specifically excludes "gradual degradation."

On the Model 3 degradation is covered. The warranty covers 70% energy retention. So on the long range Model 3 they would replace the battery when the 100% charge drops from 310 miles down to 216 miles during the covered warranty period.

The problem with the M3 warranty is that nobody can determine when you get to 70% except Tesla. Want to base it off of your Rated Miles at full charge? Well, guess who is in control of THAT calculation...

 

[ACA Man]

The problem with the M3 warranty is that nobody can determine when you get to 70% except Tesla. Want to base it off of your Rated Miles at full charge? Well, guess who is in control of THAT calculation...

Exactly.

 

[Testwa]

Never had any noticeable supercharging capping so not sure what the OP is talking about there. I don't exactly see what Tesla should be expected to do about it.
Jeff

Several people reported on slow charging with 90D after a while. The statement from Tesla was about reducing max charging after several fast chargings. I think this issue hasn't been fully identified, but some owners have high charging above 110kW when the car is new but that charging speed degrades to e.g. 90kw after some time. Here in this case charging at 62kW would be too low, if the charging takes place at a supercharger and there is no car next to it charging as well and sharing the same stall.

 

[Testwa]

I have a 90D less than 20k miles and it has lost at least 10% of rated miles, and I am currently supercharging at 62kW. Tesla is capping the charging because of the poor performance of their 90 batteries and it’s unnaceptable. I am going to have to supercharge close to 2 hours each leg of a trip.

It is not easy to identify the degradation of a battery, just taking the rated miles is not really sufficient. Pre-condition would be probably like going close 0% and then charge fully including balancing of the batteries. After that your rated miles might be readjusted.
62kW would be too low if you made sure that no one next to you is charging as well and sharing the super charger number. They are always two stalls paired (sharing the same number like 1a and 1b) to a maximum of 120kw (or was is 150?) in total with giving the first one arrived a higher priority, meaning higher charging rate.

 

[zambono]

When was it manufactured?

I'm at 23K miles and at 90% I'm at 263 usually. So about 1-2 miles lost so far in rated range.

July 2016 or so

 

[zambono]

Several people reported on slow charging with 90D after a while. The statement from Tesla was about reducing max charging after several fast chargings. I think this issue hasn't been fully identified, but some owners have high charging above 110kW when the car is new but that charging speed degrades to e.g. 90kw after some time. Here in this case charging at 62kW would be too low, if the charging takes place at a supercharger and there is no car next to it charging as well and sharing the same stall.

Correct it starts touching 90 and then comes down slowly to low 60s before the battery is half full

 

[zambono]

It is not easy to identify the degradation of a battery, just taking the rated miles is not really sufficient. Pre-condition would be probably like going close 0% and then charge fully including balancing of the batteries. After that your rated miles might be readjusted.
62kW would be too low if you made sure that no one next to you is charging as well and sharing the super charger number. They are always two stalls paired (sharing the same number like 1a and 1b) to a maximum of 120kw (or was is 150?) in total with giving the first one arrived a higher priority, meaning higher charging rate.

12 stalk supercharger only one other car charging. I even switched stall to a different number and same result, touched 90 then came down to 60

 

[Shateam]

July 2016 or so

What's your battery part number?

 

[croman]

Is this verified to be true, or just a guess? I think there’s dynamic math because my rates range has gone back up several times. During periods of specific lower wh/mi travel (say over several hundred miles), I will get a few more miles of rated range on a 100% charge (and a 90% charge). Model S 60.

Rated is math. Charging to 100% will balance cells and influence bms to report a more accurate state of charge which is the math to get rated (~289wh/mi) * kwh.

 

[croman]

Illinois had a very helpful consumer fraud statute that actually was recently used against Volvo for improper marketing of plug in hybrid battery electric only range. Northern district of Illinois said statute applied to similar facts as here.

Tesla should me proactive with this. The supercharging reduction I dunno but the capacity and range losses make the 90 pack seem defective as compared to the 85 chemistry and new 100 packs.

 

[RYCO]

I have a 2016 refreshed 90D. 38k miles. 90% gets me 243. But that's a joke. I never get close. I get about 50kw out of my battery. I had them flash my car to reset it to factory and remove all of the calculations it uses to give rated range. Since then, I have used chill mode and range mode and driven like a snail. Making people mad even in the freeway, all the while staying out of the fast lane. Now I'm at 22% battery and 43 kw, traveled 143 miles since last charge. I have been asking the service center to check it out and it gets to the point that they say something isnt right and they will have the engineers look at it, then nothing happens. Now since the flash or reset or what ever you want to call it, they are having me drive it and get it low again and they will check it again. Again..... and again and again. I'll try to load pictures of my dash from last time and this time. I know there are people on here that know more than I do about this, maybe these pictures will help. The first picture I just took and was from a 90% charge. The second one was from a while ago when they were "working" on it once and was from a 100% charge. Thoughts?

 

[alcibiades]

Illinois had a very helpful consumer fraud statute that actually was recently used against Volvo for improper marketing of plug in hybrid battery electric only range. Northern district of Illinois said statute applied to similar facts as here.

Do you have a link to this?

 

[croman]

Volvo Can't Boot Electric Car Suit After 7th Circ. Revival - Law360

Volvo can't escape class action suit due to alleged false marketing over range of hybrid SUV

The case is still being litigated. Statutory claims, once they survive a MTD, are very expensive and hard to defend against (I mean, the ICFA has no intent to defraud requirement. Its either does it do what is advertised or claimed, or not (i.e. math)). There are no real defenses if you can make a cognizable claim (and its a matter of law so plaintiffs have a good chance of winning at Summary Judgment after making defendant expend sums in discovery).

So BEV manufacturers are going to be in hot water if it doesn't do exactly what they say (here Volvo claimed 19 miles all electric, owner claimed it only went like 8 miles and Volvo engineers couldn't get the car to go past 11 miles)).

Here's a copy of the recent Order. Its not looking good for Volvo. They need to settle ASAP.

Laurens v. Volvo Cars of North America, LLC et al, No. 1:2016cv04507 - Document 67 (N.D. Ill. 2017)

 

[Gwgan]

There are two Superchargers I have used several times each. The older one charges my 2yr old 50k X90D (90% 214mi) at 60’s kW during the day but I have had higher power charges at night and the newer one provides ~105kW until at least 60% and then drops slowly into the 90’s whether it is sunny or not. There are more variables outside the car which contribute to charge power. Just be cautious using charging power to infer capacity loss.

 

[Bebop]

90D 29K miles, built/delivered November 2015, 90% 237 miles...

Never had any noticeable supercharging capping so not sure what the OP is talking about there. I don't exactly see what Tesla should be expected to do about it. Batteries degrade, it's what they do.

Jeff

I'm seeing some interesting numbers in this thread for the 90 cars. 237 at 90% seems abnormal to me? I'm guessing the 90 packs have been improved upon since 2015 up until it being discontinued.

But I'm starting to wonder if those new drive units introduced in July are really making a big difference. Even weirder if that I'm supercharging probably every other day, you would think I would be suffering intense degradation by now from heavy use of supercharging. But no. Weird. Or maybe that drop down will happen all at once and not really gradually over time.

at 100% I'm at 293 miles.

 

[sauce]

I'm seeing some interesting numbers in this thread for the 90 cars. 237 at 90% seems abnormal to me? I'm guessing the 90 packs have been improved upon since 2015 up until it being discontinued.

But I'm starting to wonder if those new drive units introduced in July are really making a big difference. Even weirder if that I'm supercharging probably every other day, you would think I would be suffering intense degradation by now from heavy use of supercharging. But no. Weird. Or maybe that drop down will happen all at once and not really gradually over time.

at 100% I'm at 293 miles.

@Bebop, I have similar driving patterns as you and same build week as well (though SC'ing on avg 2x/wk) and here's where my car currently stands with degradation:
100% @ 289 miles (from 299 miles new)
90% @ 260 miles

That's 3% degradation over 25k.

 

[BerTX]

I have a 2016 refreshed 90D. 38k miles. 90% gets me 243. But that's a joke. I never get close. I get about 50kw out of my battery. I had them flash my car to reset it to factory and remove all of the calculations it uses to give rated range. Since then, I have used chill mode and range mode and driven like a snail. Making people mad even in the freeway, all the while staying out of the fast lane. Now I'm at 22% battery and 43 kw, traveled 143 miles since last charge. I have been asking the service center to check it out and it gets to the point that they say something isnt right and they will have the engineers look at it, then nothing happens. Now since the flash or reset or what ever you want to call it, they are having me drive it and get it low again and they will check it again. Again..... and again and again. I'll try to load pictures of my dash from last time and this time. I know there are people on here that know more than I do about this, maybe these pictures will help. The first picture I just took and was from a 90% charge. The second one was from a while ago when they were "working" on it once and was from a 100% charge. Thoughts?View attachment 293417 View attachment 293415

My thought is that this is probably not related to the topic of this thread, and you would likely have more success in finding suggestions or others with your issue if you put in in its own thread. This is not typical to a problem with 90 kWh battery degradation.

 

[K-MTG]

My 90D battery is still like new with 28k miles. I treat it well. Daily charge to 70% and about 10 super charging sessions. 99% of charging happens at home.

 

[Bebop]

@Bebop, I have similar driving patterns as you and same build week as well (though SC'ing on avg 2x/wk) and here's where my car currently stands with degradation:
100% @ 289 miles (from 299 miles new)
90% @ 260 miles

That's 3% degradation over 25k.

That is very interesting...

I'll have to report back in once I get over that 25K mark and see if my numbers get worse or stay the same. It seems like either...

A.) The dropoff of degradation happens after the 25K mark and that is why I have not seen it yet compared to others.

or

B.) Supercharging has had the opposite effect of what most people say it has on the battery. And it has actually helped lower the speed of degradation. Not degradation itself, just the speed of which it happens.