All discussion of Nikola Motors

[Prunesquallor]

One thing is to look at Hindenburg's track record. Last year (2019), for instance, they attacked Bloom Energy: Bloom Energy: A “Clean” Energy Darling Wilting to its Demise

Bloom said it was lies and false conclusions the next day with this response: Bloom Energy Responds to Statements in Report Published by Hindenburg Research

But, earlier this year, Forbes did an article (The Forbes Investigation: How Bloom Energy Blew Through Billions Promising Cheap, Green Tech That Falls Short ) on Bloom Energy that said "Bloom has never generated a profit, despite at least $1.7 billion of invested capital, some of which was raised on the back of false statements."

But worse was the preface Forbes put in front of the article: "This Forbes magazine story went to press several days before Bloom Energy’s February 12, 2020, disclosure that it would be restating its prior four years’ financial statements, lowering revenue by up to $180 million, and adding $75 million to losses. "

So, I don't think one can dismiss Hindenburg's claims outright. But, even if the things they point out are true, does that mean the company will actually fail?

-----

I will say that my own prior view has been that Milton often talks about the future using the present tense. And the company has switched underlying technologies like Musk switches wives/girlfriends: First it was CNG, then some battery tech that was more energy dense than Tesla, then fuel cells, then their own battery/drivetrain technology, and now switching to GM's battery/fuel cell/drivetrain technology.

On that last point, watch this video: https://twitter.com/i/status/1303753497180078082 , starting at about 2:30 in:
Julia Chatterly: "What's left for you guys?"
Trevor Milton: "Nikola built the Badger from the group up already... The controls, the inverter, the drivetrain has been designed and built by Nikola."
But in a Squawk Box interview with Milton and GM CEO Mary Barra, (Nikola shares pop as much as 53% after General Motors takes 11% stake in electric truck maker), Milton admits Nikola was never going to build the Badger themselves, and Mary Barra actually says: "Nikola will be using...the Ultium battery platform system as well as our Hydrotech Fuel cell technology - this is a wonderful validation of our technology and then bringing our engineering and manufacturing expertise to the table."

When asked what Nikola technology GM might have access to, Barra simply restates Nikola will be using GM's battery and fuel cell technology. So, GM isn't getting any tech from Nikola. GM is getting an 11% stake in the company that they can sell pretty quickly. GM is getting a contract manufacturing deal to build Badgers for Nikola (at cost plus profit), and GM gets to use Nikola's pickups and semis as first production tests for their technology that they'll then roll into their own vehicles.

The non-conspiratorial view of this is that Milton is open to using the best battery/fuel cell/drivetrain technology they can find. As the company has grown in market cap and as Tesla has made the traditional OEMs look for ways to stay relevant, Nikola has been able to have high level discussions with the legacy OEMs who probably wouldn't have given Milton the time of day two years ago. So, you can't blame Milton for taking advantage of their improved situation to source better products.

But, at best what Milton is doing is "fake it until you make it." I'm sure he has lied and misled - the question is whether he can continue to keep saving the company before those become a real problem. Nikola still needs to show they can build hydrogen generation and fueling stations (or actually, the NEL ASA can build them in the US), and then that building and running those stations is economically viable. I suspect the first hydrogen they generate will either not be cost effective or not be generated by electrolysis (or both). But, between Invecco and now GM, they have companies who know who to build vehicle lined up to build vehicles for Nikola. All the fakery around demos and videos and changing of specs is lousy, but not company killing.

Milton will continue to ride the waves created by Elon Musk and Tesla as long as he can. And if he continues to sign up real companies, things might work out for a while, at least until things like fuel cell energy physics and costs not coming down to where they need to be become apparent, which will take several years. Milton is perhaps counting on things changing enough by then that he can pivot a few dozen more times.

I think you’re being too kind. Nikola/Trevor is done. There’s too much verifiable damning stuff in the Hindenburg report to allow survival. Now it’s all about exit strategies.

 

[Fred42]

I think you’re being too kind. Nikola/Trevor is done. There’s too much verifiable damning stuff in the Hindenburg report to allow survival. Now it’s all about exit strategies.

If GM cancels, what does Trevor do? No GM means no batteries and no hydrogen systems for the semis. Would anyone else sign up provide them? Litigation, declining stock price, no confidence by suppliers or customers: end of road.

Edit: If it becomes accepted that there was widespread fraud in Nikola's pre-GM activities, I believe GM will bail to limit the taint on GM.

 

[M|S|M MYP]

While i never root against anyone to fail....i do like to see justice brought upon con-artists. His shenanigans have gone on for too long now...next time TM is featured will be on an episode of "American Greed".

 

[Cosmacelf]

It's a whole truck, not a rolling chassis. NKLA says they now won't have to build a factory for Badger, so they won't be "slapping a body on it". Nor would that make sense. BIW, paint and assembly are the hard things (just ask Tesla) and GM would be 100x better than NKLA at that.

I don't think this matters for the $7500, though, and you can rest assured the lawyers are on top of the issue. One article said GM would make tens of thousands per year, so 200k will take some time. GM isn't giving NKLA cash, they're investing 2b of R&D, factory capacity, etc. into the project. Most of which they'd be doing anyway, of course.

NKLA basically becomes an online dealership with exclusive trademarks, badging and design elements.

Yes, this is GM doing an end around the $7,500 fed incentive. GM gets to charge Nikola up to $700M for R&D expenses to build what GM wants to build anyways. And GM even gets their clean air credits (80% of them). GM is going to prop up Nikola like "Weekend at Bernie's" until they've sucked all they need from Nikola, then put Nikola out of business, then sue the dead carcass for some material breach and siphon off whatever's left.

I do wonder if it'll work as great as GM thinks it will...

 

[jpsgoneev]

What is known about VectoIQ Acquisition? Who were the investors? Makes you wonder what type of due diligence was done prior to their selection of Nicola for the reverse merger. Were they just interested in the quick pump and dump ... quick buck?

 

[jpsgoneev]

So this analyst Jeff Osborne has a $79 price target for NKLA and a $285 price target for TSLA. Here is a CNBC interview with him about his stance.

So his target valuations are:
TSLA: $57B
NKLA: $28.5B

He believes that NKLA with $0 revenue and 350 employees, is worth half as much as TSLA with $20B+ revenue and 50,000 employees? In what universe does this guy live that this makes any sense?

Months later, this analyst holds steady on his $79 PT and Buy rating. It was reiterated just two days ago. However, according to TipRanks, his average returns are less than ... positive. Buy, Buy, Buy ?!

 

[M|S|M MYP]

Months later, this analyst holds steady on his $79 PT and Buy rating. It was reiterated just two days ago. However, according to TipRanks, his average returns are less than ... positive. Buy, Buy, Buy ?!

View attachment 586923

He's blinded by the fact that its really a 'zero emissions' semi..it was 'rolling' down the hill so it didnt' emit anything into the atmosphere.

 

[M|S|M MYP]

What is known about VectoIQ Acquisition? Who were the investors? Makes you wonder what type of due diligence was done prior to their selection of Nicola for the reverse merger. Were they just interested in the quick pump and dump ... quick buck?

They got their $$...why else would they do it? You pay me..ill take you public....ill take the $$ for doing nothing.

 

[smorgasbord]

I think you’re being too kind. Nikola/Trevor is done. There’s too much verifiable damning stuff in the Hindenburg report to allow survival. Now it’s all about exit strategies.

How many people here remember the "Tesla Death Watch" series from 2007-2008 on The Truth About Cars website? The 40 some odd posts are still up. We know today that at least half of what they wrote was true (Roadster production issues, transmission issues, price raises after deposits were taken, company running low on funding with Elon and then Mercedes bailing it out, etc.). And more recently, the solar roof tile reveal during the Solar City merger, which most accounts believe was a fake tile and took years to make viable.

The fake it until you make it approach is sometimes necessary. However, it takes a sharp mind, strong technical chops, and luck to make work. So far, Milton has been able to pivot from lie to misleading statement to just plain old changes pretty successfully. He has been enormously helped, as I said, by the waves of perception that Elon Musk and Tesla have created. The ironic thing is that with Tesla's success to raise awareness and make people like Mary Barra take his calls, Trevor might be pouring concrete in Hawaii, too. Back in 2014 the legacy OEMs were laughing at Tesla. I was at CES in 2015 and was in meetings and restaurants where people were literally laughing at him and the company.

Yes, this is GM doing an end around the $7,500 fed incentive. GM gets to charge Nikola up to $700M for R&D expenses to build what GM wants to build anyways. And GM even gets their clean air credits (80% of them). GM is going to prop up Nikola like "Weekend at Bernie's" until they've sucked all they need from Nikola, then put Nikola out of business, then sue the dead carcass for some material breach and siphon off whatever's left.

I do wonder if it'll work as great as GM thinks it will...

GM is in a no-lose, or little to lose, situation here. They have a contract to build vehicles at cost plus guaranteed profit. That will help them test, debug, and scale their battery and EV drivetrain engineering and manufacturing, as use Nikola vehicles as the early adopters. And there's a very real possibility that GM ends up owning all of Nikola after transferring all of their new EV tech to the company. Just look at what happened with Delphi - they split off a new company, Aptiv, which got all of the new technology (electrical architectures, OTA updating, etc.) while Delphi was left with the less profitable legacy businesses of alternators and such. Same could happen with GM and Nikola.

GM needs to completely re-engineer the Badger now. I'll bet it's not just batteries, fool cells, and drivetrains. I'll bet GM gets Nikola to use its infotainment systems, for instance (built by third parties like Harman, but with GM software on top so Nikola will put their skinning on top) - and probably lots of other items, whether its deals with Magna for seats and interiors, or any of the other hundreds of Tier 1s with which GM does volume business and can get deals for Nikola production at GM factories. So, my guess is the Badger will simply be a GM pickup, maybe with some things pushed harder by Milton than GM would push.

And, of course, Milton could still stumble. He still needs to get NEL's electrolysis hydrogen stations to work, get electricity cheap enough, not to mention building the actual semi trucks (which means getting an actual factory built). So, lots of room to fail, but also lots of time for him to continue to find new partners, now that the legacy transportation world sees the disruptive light and is looking for a way in.

 

[AudubonB]

I don't remember Hindenburg as one of those who were hammering on TSLA in times past, but there were some posters here or elsewhere who referred to that. Has anyone a definitive word as to yay or nay and if so, when?

 

[mltv]

GM is in a no-lose, or little to lose, situation here.

I beg to differ on the no-lose for GM. The 700M they can bill Nikola is for tooling, not for Engineering and R&D. Though the R&D can be reuse in other GM model, design and engineering parts for a new model takes time and money, which they expect to get from Nikola stock. If that price become $10, the contract is still binding, they still have to design and engineer a production vehicle. I believe this is not just a reputation hit, this is a job loosing deal.

 

[Cosmacelf]

I beg to differ on the no-lose for GM. The 700M they can bill Nikola is for tooling, not for Engineering and R&D. Though the R&D can be reuse in other GM model, design and engineering parts for a new model takes time and money, which they expect to get from Nikola stock. If that price become $10, the contract is still binding, they still have to design and engineer a production vehicle. I believe this is not just a reputation hit, this is a job loosing deal.

You think Nikola is the only scam artist in this deal? GM can easily bill more than the tooling is worth resulting in Nikola effectively paying for engineering and R&D.

 

[Cosmacelf]

What is known about VectoIQ Acquisition? Who were the investors? Makes you wonder what type of due diligence was done prior to their selection of Nicola for the reverse merger. Were they just interested in the quick pump and dump ... quick buck?

Reverse mergers into public shells are usually pump and dump operations. SPACs are just a better financed reverse merger into public shells. So, yes, likely a pump and dump.

Look, it’s pretty easy. Does the acquired company have real products, real revenue, and a track record? If not, it’s very likely a pump and dump scam.

Both reverse mergers and SPACs bypass the SEC IPO prospectus process, and for that reason alone should be banned. The whole point of public markets is that the underlying companies are real and have had some vetting by the regulators. Why the SEC allows this crap to happen is beyond me. They dump on real companies like Tesla for picky technical violations and fine them $40M while letting frauds like this happen right under their noses.

 

[Watts_Up]

I noticed that Hyundai and Toyota are fully certified to develop and manufacture Fuel Cells and Hydrogen Tanks:

Toyota moves to expand mass-production of fuel cell stacks and hydrogen tanks towards ten-fold increase post-2020​

In US, for the past ten years the majors US bus manufacturers, such as New Flyer, Proterra, Van Holl...,
have been producing Fuel Cells Buses based on the Ballard Fuel Cells Stack.

Does anyone know if Nikola Motors has plan to build Fuel Cells or will use Fuel Cells Stack from an external supplier?

 

[Prunesquallor]

https://twitter.com/nikolatrevor/status/1304291381637124096?s=21

Trev is burning the midnight oil.

 

[Prunesquallor]

I noticed that Hyundai and Toyota are fully certified to develop and manufacture Fuel Cells and Hydrogen Tanks:

Toyota moves to expand mass-production of fuel cell stacks and hydrogen tanks towards ten-fold increase post-2020​

In US, for the past ten years the majors US bus manufacturers, such as New Flyer, Proterra, Van Holl...,
have been producing Fuel Cells Buses based on the Ballard Fuel Cells Stack.

Does anyone know if Nikola Motors has plan to build Fuel Cells or will use Fuel Cells Stack from an external supplier?

From the recent news, it sounds like the plan is to use the GM Hydrotec FCs

Nikola and General Motors Form Strategic Partnership; Nikola Badger to be Engineered and Manufactured by General Motors

 

[HVM]

Odd how little news site do fact checking, here just by Google search and quick SEC filings reading:

* Hindenburg Research claim
- Fact check:


* We examine how Nikola got its early start and show how Trevor misled partners into signing agreements by falsely claiming to have extensive proprietary technology.

- GM provides batteries and fuel-cells so kind of shown to be true.



* We reveal how, in the face of growing skepticism over the functionality of its truck, Nikola staged a video called “Nikola One in Motion” which showed the semi-truck cruising on a road at a high rate of speed. Our investigation of the site and text messages from a former employee reveal that the video was an elaborate ruse—Nikola had the truck towed to the top of a hill on a remote stretch of road and simply filmed it rolling down the hill.

- Only ex-employees testimonies



* In October 2019, Nikola announced it would revolutionize the battery industry. This was to be done through a pending acquisition, but the deal fell through when Nikola realized (a) the technology was vaporware and (b) the President of the battery company had been indicted months earlier over allegations that he conned NASA by using his expense account to procure numerous prostitutes.

-True; Charles Resnick was charged. Nikola made complaint against ZapGo. "ZapGo will not able to deliver a Development Product..."



* Nikola has never walked back claims relating to its battery technology. Instead, Trevor continued to publicly hype the technology even after becoming aware of the above issues. The revolutionary battery technology never existed – now, Nikola plans to use GM’s battery technology instead.

-True; tweets are still there.



* A spokesman for Volvo spin-off Powercell AB, a hydrogen fuel cell technology company that formerly partnered with Nikola, called Nikola’s battery and hydrogen fuel cell claims “hot air”.

-Powercell AB declined Nikola terms and there's not reason to doubt citation.



* In addition to now using GM’s battery technology, Nikola seeks to use the automaker’s production and fuel cell capabilities. Nikola seems to be bringing nothing to the partnership but concept designs, their brand name and up to $700 million they will be paying GM for costs related to production.

-True



* Inexpensive hydrogen is fundamental to the success of Nikola’s business model. Trevor has claimed in a presentation to hundreds of people and in multiple interviews to have succeeded at cutting the cost of hydrogen by ~81% compared to peers and to already be producing hydrogen. Nikola has not produced hydrogen at this price or at any price as he later admitted when pressed by media.

-True; there's no production in site by Milton himself.



* Trevor has appointed his brother, Travis, as “Director of Hydrogen Production/Infrastructure” to oversee this critical part of the business. Travis’s prior experience looks to have largely consisted of pouring concrete driveways and doing subcontractor work on home renovations in Hawaii.

-True



* Claims of owning energy producing assets is not new for Nikola. Trevor claimed that Nikola’s headquarters has 3.5 megawatts of solar panels on its roof producing energy. Aerial photos of the roof and later media reports show that the supposed panels don’t exist.

-True



* At one point Nikola claimed to own its own natural gas wells. There is no evidence in company filings to support this. The claims were eventually quietly removed from Nikola’s website.

-True



* Trevor claims Nikola designs all key components in house, but they appear to simply be buying or licensing them from third-parties. One example: we found that Nikola actually buys inverters from a company called Cascadia. In a video showing off its “in-house” inverters, Nikola concealed the Cascadia label with a piece of masking tape.

-Seems to be true by photographic evidence.



* In a July 2020 podcast, Trevor said of Nikola’s “Tre” truck: “We have five of them coming off the assembly line right now in Ulm Germany.” A spokesperson for Bosch, the manufacturing partner building the trucks, confirmed this month that they haven’t made any trucks yet.

-There's not reason to doubt citation.



* The company’s Nikola One “reveal” was a total farce. We corroborate Bloomberg’s earlier work debunking Trevor’s claims regarding its semi-truck that “this thing fully functions and works…this is a real truck” and provide new evidence.

-True; by Milton himself admitting that One was, in fact "Pusher".



* We present behind-the-scenes photos showing that Nikola had an electricity cable snaked up from underneath the stage into the truck in order to falsely claim the Nikola One’s electrical systems fully functioned.

-True; cable is visible in videos



* We learned through emails and interviews with former partners that Trevor had an artist stencil “H2” and “Zero Emission Hydrogen Electric” on the side of the Nikola One despite it having no hydrogen capabilities whatsoever; it was built with natural gas components.

-Only ex-employees testimonies



* We also present evidence that subsequent “reveals” were fictitious. In 2019, Nikola revealed a “next generation” version of its off-road vehicle. We learned that it was scrapped within weeks of the unveiling due to manufacturing challenges. The redesign work was then quietly outsourced.

-Only ex-employees testimonies



* Nikola’s much-touted multi-billion dollar order book is filled with fluff. U.S. Xpress reportedly accounts for a third of its reservations, representing ~$3.5 billion in orders. U.S. Xpress had only $1.3 million in cash on hand last quarter.

-True



* Nikola’s key partners and backers have been cashing out aggressively. Worthington, Bosch and ValueAct have all sold shares. Worthington sold $237 million shares over a 2-day span in July and another $250 million in August. We think they know exactly what type of company Nikola is, and we expect that as Nikola’s GM “partnership” boosts the stock price, key holders will continue to exit.

-True



* Trevor has ensured he is not going down with the ship. He cashed out $70 million around the IPO and amended his share lock-up from 1-year to 180 days. If he is fired, his equity awards immediately vest and he is entitled to collect $20 million over two years. Milton has laid the groundwork to extract hundreds of millions from Nikola years before ever delivering on his promises.

-True

 

[Mike Smith]

Prediction: Trevor releases a statement saying he can't respond to the allegations at this time because they're suing Hindenburg.

 

[willow_hiller]

Nikola had the truck towed to the top of a hill on a remote stretch of road and simply filmed it rolling down the hill.

This claim seems pretty easy to verify based on the video itself.

It's been identified that the truck was filmed on the Mormon Trail road, outside of Grantsville, Utah. And that road does indeed have a grade that allows vehicles to achieve 50-60 MPH while rolling in neutral.

That, and the editing on the video is just odd. They show it traveling, and cut to it stopped, and cut to it traveling, and cut to it stopped. Not a single cut shows the vehicle accelerating under its own power.

 

[kbM3]

Odd how little news site do fact checking, here just by Google search and quick SEC filings reading:

* Hindenburg Research claim
- Fact check:


* We examine how Nikola got its early start and show how Trevor misled partners into signing agreements by falsely claiming to have extensive proprietary technology.

- GM provides batteries and fuel-cells so kind of shown to be true.



* We reveal how, in the face of growing skepticism over the functionality of its truck, Nikola staged a video called “Nikola One in Motion” which showed the semi-truck cruising on a road at a high rate of speed. Our investigation of the site and text messages from a former employee reveal that the video was an elaborate ruse—Nikola had the truck towed to the top of a hill on a remote stretch of road and simply filmed it rolling down the hill.

- Only ex-employees testimonies



* In October 2019, Nikola announced it would revolutionize the battery industry. This was to be done through a pending acquisition, but the deal fell through when Nikola realized (a) the technology was vaporware and (b) the President of the battery company had been indicted months earlier over allegations that he conned NASA by using his expense account to procure numerous prostitutes.

-True; Charles Resnick was charged. Nikola made complaint against ZapGo. "ZapGo will not able to deliver a Development Product..."



* Nikola has never walked back claims relating to its battery technology. Instead, Trevor continued to publicly hype the technology even after becoming aware of the above issues. The revolutionary battery technology never existed – now, Nikola plans to use GM’s battery technology instead.

-True; tweets are still there.



* A spokesman for Volvo spin-off Powercell AB, a hydrogen fuel cell technology company that formerly partnered with Nikola, called Nikola’s battery and hydrogen fuel cell claims “hot air”.

-Powercell AB declined Nikola terms and there's not reason to doubt citation.



* In addition to now using GM’s battery technology, Nikola seeks to use the automaker’s production and fuel cell capabilities. Nikola seems to be bringing nothing to the partnership but concept designs, their brand name and up to $700 million they will be paying GM for costs related to production.

-True



* Inexpensive hydrogen is fundamental to the success of Nikola’s business model. Trevor has claimed in a presentation to hundreds of people and in multiple interviews to have succeeded at cutting the cost of hydrogen by ~81% compared to peers and to already be producing hydrogen. Nikola has not produced hydrogen at this price or at any price as he later admitted when pressed by media.

-True; there's no production in site by Milton himself.



* Trevor has appointed his brother, Travis, as “Director of Hydrogen Production/Infrastructure” to oversee this critical part of the business. Travis’s prior experience looks to have largely consisted of pouring concrete driveways and doing subcontractor work on home renovations in Hawaii.

-True



* Claims of owning energy producing assets is not new for Nikola. Trevor claimed that Nikola’s headquarters has 3.5 megawatts of solar panels on its roof producing energy. Aerial photos of the roof and later media reports show that the supposed panels don’t exist.

-True



* At one point Nikola claimed to own its own natural gas wells. There is no evidence in company filings to support this. The claims were eventually quietly removed from Nikola’s website.

-True



* Trevor claims Nikola designs all key components in house, but they appear to simply be buying or licensing them from third-parties. One example: we found that Nikola actually buys inverters from a company called Cascadia. In a video showing off its “in-house” inverters, Nikola concealed the Cascadia label with a piece of masking tape.

-Seems to be true by photographic evidence.



* In a July 2020 podcast, Trevor said of Nikola’s “Tre” truck: “We have five of them coming off the assembly line right now in Ulm Germany.” A spokesperson for Bosch, the manufacturing partner building the trucks, confirmed this month that they haven’t made any trucks yet.

-There's not reason to doubt citation.



* The company’s Nikola One “reveal” was a total farce. We corroborate Bloomberg’s earlier work debunking Trevor’s claims regarding its semi-truck that “this thing fully functions and works…this is a real truck” and provide new evidence.

-True; by Milton himself admitting that One was, in fact "Pusher".



* We present behind-the-scenes photos showing that Nikola had an electricity cable snaked up from underneath the stage into the truck in order to falsely claim the Nikola One’s electrical systems fully functioned.

-True; cable is visible in videos



* We learned through emails and interviews with former partners that Trevor had an artist stencil “H2” and “Zero Emission Hydrogen Electric” on the side of the Nikola One despite it having no hydrogen capabilities whatsoever; it was built with natural gas components.

-Only ex-employees testimonies



* We also present evidence that subsequent “reveals” were fictitious. In 2019, Nikola revealed a “next generation” version of its off-road vehicle. We learned that it was scrapped within weeks of the unveiling due to manufacturing challenges. The redesign work was then quietly outsourced.

-Only ex-employees testimonies



* Nikola’s much-touted multi-billion dollar order book is filled with fluff. U.S. Xpress reportedly accounts for a third of its reservations, representing ~$3.5 billion in orders. U.S. Xpress had only $1.3 million in cash on hand last quarter.

-True



* Nikola’s key partners and backers have been cashing out aggressively. Worthington, Bosch and ValueAct have all sold shares. Worthington sold $237 million shares over a 2-day span in July and another $250 million in August. We think they know exactly what type of company Nikola is, and we expect that as Nikola’s GM “partnership” boosts the stock price, key holders will continue to exit.

-True



* Trevor has ensured he is not going down with the ship. He cashed out $70 million around the IPO and amended his share lock-up from 1-year to 180 days. If he is fired, his equity awards immediately vest and he is entitled to collect $20 million over two years. Milton has laid the groundwork to extract hundreds of millions from Nikola years before ever delivering on his promises.

-True

‘the hill also has a too coincidental to be false aspect. I.e. what are the odds, that Nikola just happened purely by chance to accidentally pick a road with a 3% decline over 2 miles, that can be filmed in such a way to appear to have no decline? Hindenburg research found the exact hill, and actually measured the result of coasting their own vehicle down.