Alternatives to a used Model S?

[robg]

I came to the idea of buying a used Model S because for my budget (low 40s), it seemed like I could get a good looking, comfortable fast, practical car with modern tech and a 4 year warranty. That's all true, but after spending some time researching, I"m not sure I can tolerate such potentially poor customer service (both pre and post sale) plus all the issues that seem to crop up--some that still have no resolution. You guys seems like a reasonable bunch compared to other Tesla (and automotive forums), so was curious to hear your thoughts. I'd also consider a new car lease in the low 500s assuming that includes everything. If i'm buying, I'd like to have 4 years of additional warranty which, with most CPO programs, means I'm limited to 1 or 2 year old cars. Another option would be Carmax and buying their warranty.

Just to give some context: my ideal car would be the current body style Panamera GTS. Fast, great handling, 4, excellent build quality, good tech, great looking,V8 and has a hatchback. That's clearly out of my budget. Second choice would be the new S7 whenver that comes out. (again out of my budget). Even the S5 Sportback is still too much at this point. I"m not precious about having an EV; it was the other attributes that drew me to the Model S. My only real powertrain constraint is that I don't want anything w/ 4 cylinders.

For new car leases, A Kia Stinger GT or 440 Gran Coupe might fit the bill but my wife nixed both of them- she doesnt like the looks. 3 Series GT, and old body style Panamera are too ugly for me to consider. What I'm left with:
2016 Macan S from Carmax
2016 Audi A7 from Carmax

Both are options are "fine", but the tech in both feels old and I'm not the biggest fan of the looks of either.

Anything I'm missing? Or should I go back to trying to rationalize a used Model S despite the downsides.

 

[Rodolfo Paiz]

I have zero data with which to back this up, but I believe generally you get a lot of what you expect and you deserve. I've driven Teslas for almost 8 years now, always had great service and cooperative Tesla folks. A few hiccups in service or delivery, but they weren't a big deal because I didn't work up a lather over them. But people who are (unconsciously) looking for a nit to pick, or a reason to get their nose out of joint, generally find it. Of course there's some cases of even angels having bad experiences, but as a statistical population I'd bet most people have few problems.

Besides, I've had terrible experiences with BMW and even Porsche. Other people love them. It's also somewhat a matter of luck. You need to make sure you're comfortable. I tend to think you're overcomplicating this, but again, you need to make sure you're comfortable.

You might also consider a brand-new Model 3. My daughter has the almost-base model, the Standard Plus, and it's a true pleasure to drive. Small, agile, nimble, smooth and thoroughly enjoyable from my point of view. Build quality seems to keep improving every year, and we found no issues with her car upon delivery a couple of weeks ago. The usual great Tesla stability and 5.4 seconds 0-60. So it seems that would be a good option.

Lastly, while Tesla sells used cars not CPO, I think (but do verify this please) that any used car you buy from them will have a four-year warranty. That might make it worthwhile to buy a used car from Tesla. When I sold my 2013 P85 Model S at the four-year mark, I sold it for just under $50,000... so a four- or five-year-old used Model S might work too.

 

[robg]

I have zero data with which to back this up, but I believe generally you get a lot of what you expect and you deserve. I've driven Teslas for almost 8 years now, always had great service and cooperative Tesla folks. A few hiccups in service or delivery, but they weren't a big deal because I didn't work up a lather over them. But people who are (unconsciously) looking for a nit to pick, or a reason to get their nose out of joint, generally find it. Of course there's some cases of even angels having bad experiences, but as a statistical population I'd bet most people have few problems.

Besides, I've had terrible experiences with BMW and even Porsche. Other people love them. It's also somewhat a matter of luck. You need to make sure you're comfortable. I tend to think you're overcomplicating this, but again, you need to make sure you're comfortable.

You might also consider a brand-new Model 3. My daughter has the almost-base model, the Standard Plus, and it's a true pleasure to drive. Small, agile, nimble, smooth and thoroughly enjoyable from my point of view. Build quality seems to keep improving every year, and we found no issues with her car upon delivery a couple of weeks ago. The usual great Tesla stability and 5.4 seconds 0-60. So it seems that would be a good option.

Lastly, while Tesla sells used cars not CPO, I think (but do verify this please) that any used car you buy from them will have a four-year warranty. That might make it worthwhile to buy a used car from Tesla. When I sold my 2013 P85 Model S at the four-year mark, I sold it for just under $50,000... so a four- or five-year-old used Model S might work too.

Thanks! Yes, I had been considering used vehicles from Tesla with their warranty (it's 4 years provided the car has under 50k miles). There are plenty of interesting options in my price range (most likely a late 15 or early 16 85D) but an early facelift 75D could be an option too.

I agree that Model 3 now seems to have better build quality than the S and is more fun to drive (atleast that was my impression) but there are a few deal breakers for me with that car unfortunately (big one being that its not a hatch). Anyway, I think either a used Model S or new Model 3 are equally likely to have various issues on delivery- my concern is more the way Tesla deals (or doesn't as the case may be) with those issues.

I know people have bad experiences with every brand. Personally, I've had a few BMWs and rarely had anything go wrong, but when it did, the dealers I've dealt with manage to deal with it swiftly and effectively. But, taken on aggregate, there seem to be way more complaints regarding customer service (pre and post sale) with Tesla than with other brands (looking across multiple sources). It's not surprising given how fast the company is trying to expand.

Curious to hear about your poor BMW and Porsche experiences if you dont mind sharing. And, if Tesla didn't exist, what car would you drive?

 

[drummerboy7816]

Was pretty much in your exact shoes 2 months ago. Also loved the styling of the Panamera - Model S sporty sleek large sedan look. Also needed large cargo space, under $50k budget all in after all taxes and fees.

After much research, I just didn't think there was anything that was anywhere close as a direct competition to an S. The Macan S was the runner up for me, BUT it was a lot slower than the 2015 85D I ended up with (6 sec compared to 4 sec), surprisingly slightly less cargo space overall with seats folded down, much worst fuel economy equiv in terms of $$$ even if you exclude the free supercharger aspect that comes with most of the used S. Also, if you haven't already, you should go take a long test drive of a Tesla, specifically try out the Traffic Assist Cruise Control on the freeway.. that is a game changer for me. This is just AP1, but driving 300+ miles in a day on a highway to Vegas with various degrees of traffic was such a better experience with the car practically driving itself.

I loved the look of the A7 as well.. but I'm avoiding VW family due to my bad experience with my GTI that I sold before switching to the Tesla. Once it hit about 70k miles, all sorts of drive train issues came about, spend $6k in 12 months and said that was enough, I don't want to put another penny in it.. so I sold it to Carmax and got my 85D

If you're going the used Tesla route, check out the used Tesla lessons learned thread that I started. Many others also contributed good responses/information in it.

 

[Greengolfer]

I believe that someone's experience with delivery/service has more to do with specific servcie centers, not with the brand itself. My SC of choice is the Palm Desert SC. I picked up my used P85 there, and I have had all service done there as well(there was one mobile service appt.). My experience with them has been more than satisfactory. My only complaint is that I recieved a Mini Cooper as a Loaner once. Hopefully there is a SC near you that will take good care of you.

 

[robg]

Was pretty much in your exact shoes 2 months ago. Also loved the styling of the Panamera - Model S sporty sleek large sedan look. Also needed large cargo space, under $50k budget all in after all taxes and fees.

After much research, I just didn't think there was anything that was anywhere close as a direct competition to an S. The Macan S was the runner up for me, BUT it was a lot slower than the 2015 85D I ended up with (6 sec compared to 4 sec), surprisingly slightly less cargo space overall with seats folded down, much worst fuel economy equiv in terms of $$$ even if you exclude the free supercharger aspect that comes with most of the used S. Also, if you haven't already, you should go take a long test drive of a Tesla, specifically try out the Traffic Assist Cruise Control on the freeway.. that is a game changer for me. This is just AP1, but driving 300+ miles in a day on a highway to Vegas with various degrees of traffic was such a better experience with the car practically driving itself.

I loved the look of the A7 as well.. but I'm avoiding VW family due to my bad experience with my GTI that I sold before switching to the Tesla. Once it hit about 70k miles, all sorts of drive train issues came about, spend $6k in 12 months and said that was enough, I don't want to put another penny in it.. so I sold it to Carmax and got my 85D

If you're going the used Tesla route, check out the used Tesla lessons learned thread that I started. Many others also contributed good responses/information in it.

Totally agree. It's surprising how few options there are that tick all the same boxes (even when exclude EV as a must-have). Agree that the Macan S doesn't feel that quick (nor does an A7). I actually think the Stinger is the best overall alternative (for big fast comfortable hatch in the 40s) but would need to convince my wife (i think she doesnt like the big KIA badge on the front). And, of course, KIA dealers dont have the best reputation either.

I have test driven a new Model S and tried out AP2, but definitely plan on renting an older Model S on Turo for an extended drive should I decide to proceed. One my wishlist items in my next car is adaptive cruise. It's surprisingly hard to find on used German cars but, of course, very easy to find on used Teslas (i think all autopilot capable cars have the feature enabled by Tesla when they sell them from their used inventory).

Another consideration is that I will be sharing this car with my wife (we only need 1 car), and she is less tolerant of issues or bad customer service than i am. If it were just me, I could maybe see giving it a shot going into with my eyes open and prepared for the worst. Another reason to try one out on Turo for a roadtrip to gauge how much she likes the car.

I will definitely check out the thread you mentioned!

 

[Rodolfo Paiz]

Curious to hear about your poor BMW and Porsche experiences if you dont mind sharing. And, if Tesla didn't exist, what car would you drive?

Our current Cayenne eats oil and is frequently asking to be topped up. But mostly, Porsche is just difficult on service: they're always busy, a little snooty (like they're doing you a favor by servicing your car or repairing it if it broke). BMW had loads of mechanical issues with the sunroof on the 535GT, plus the Bluetooth module, the "telematics" module, and other electronic gremlins failed multiple times.

Back then, I drove BMW 3-series convertibles: the Boxster was too small, so was the 911. I might have gone from the 335i to something like the M5 (since I do need a bigger car these days), but I might also have gone to Porsche. Not sure. Once I tried the Roadster, there was no going back... been driving electric since August 2011.

 

[SO16]

I came to the idea of buying a used Model S because for my budget (low 40s), it seemed like I could get a good looking, comfortable fast, practical car with modern tech and a 4 year warranty. That's all true, but after spending some time researching, I"m not sure I can tolerate such potentially poor customer service (both pre and post sale) plus all the issues that seem to crop up--some that still have no resolution. You guys seems like a reasonable bunch compared to other Tesla (and automotive forums), so was curious to hear your thoughts. I'd also consider a new car lease in the low 500s assuming that includes everything. If i'm buying, I'd like to have 4 years of additional warranty which, with most CPO programs, means I'm limited to 1 or 2 year old cars. Another option would be Carmax and buying their warranty.

Just to give some context: my ideal car would be the current body style Panamera GTS. Fast, great handling, 4, excellent build quality, good tech, great looking,V8 and has a hatchback. That's clearly out of my budget. Second choice would be the new S7 whenver that comes out. (again out of my budget). Even the S5 Sportback is still too much at this point. I"m not precious about having an EV; it was the other attributes that drew me to the Model S. My only real powertrain constraint is that I don't want anything w/ 4 cylinders.

For new car leases, A Kia Stinger GT or 440 Gran Coupe might fit the bill but my wife nixed both of them- she doesnt like the looks. 3 Series GT, and old body style Panamera are too ugly for me to consider. What I'm left with:
2016 Macan S from Carmax
2016 Audi A7 from Carmax

Both are options are "fine", but the tech in both feels old and I'm not the biggest fan of the looks of either.

Anything I'm missing? Or should I go back to trying to rationalize a used Model S despite the downsides.

I’ve had great service. People that have negative experiences are probably more apt to post....which can skew the severity.

Keep this in mind:

Tesla owners are more satisfied than any other auto brand's, according to Consumer Reports

 

[SoCal Buzz]

I had Audi A7 before getting my first Tesla S in 2013 and upgrading to 100D last year. The S checks the most boxes in this space and provides fantastic overall mix of sporty, tech, handling, storage space / practicality and of course energy efficiency. While you hear the best and worst on forums, overall Tesla provides a very fine product, with slightly more fit / finish issues, at a much lower cost of ownership. If you find used Tesla in good shape (paint, finish, interior) with warranty, I would not hesitate to recommend. While Tesla Service is busy, they work very hard to make things right. You will also end up with far fewer long-term, expensive repairs as you might see on BMW / Audi around 80K miles +.

 

[glide]

Used car buyers are trash-people to Tesla

If you want poor service then go for it. Sadly there are no other options right now.

The vehicle technology is good. The fit, finish, and generally quality of build is crap for the price (especially on older vehicles).

 

[Don85D]

At the time (2015) our Model S85D was perfect to create a car that runs on sunshine. A small array of solar panels provides 25,000km of free driving each year for the next 30 years. I was looking for just such a project and only Tesla was able to replace our existing vehicles in size and cruising capability.

A different justification than most car enthusiasts.

 

[BlueOvalFan]

My used car experience with Tesla was fine and was aware of the internet lore. From click and deposit to driveaway was two weeks.

I studied the pictures closely, engaged the sales reps profusely and waited for the right vehicle.

I wouldn’t let someone’s experience weigh to heavily on your decision. Someone’s pickyness might be my whatever.

I’m going in for my first S/C visit on Monday so we’ll see how it goes. My expectations aren’t any higher than any other car service center. I’m not expecting red carpet treatment nor do I need it.

If it like Tesla then buy one !

 

[roman415]

I had a pretty crappy purchase process with Tesla, but honestly, the car makes up for it.

What about a a Genesis G70 3.3T or G80 3.3T. These are about $44k and $56k fully loaded, and there's not a lot of discounts on them now--I expect that to change towards the end of 2019. Great looking cars, very quick, great engines, great technology, very comfortable.

 

[robg]

I had a pretty crappy purchase process with Tesla, but honestly, the car makes up for it.

What about a a Genesis G70 3.3T or G80 3.3T. These are about $44k and $56k fully loaded, and there's not a lot of discounts on them now--I expect that to change towards the end of 2019. Great looking cars, very quick, great engines, great technology, very comfortable.

Very nice cars - but I’m looking for a hatch. The g70’s platform mate (Kia stinger) would likely be what I’d hey instead if I were to go that route.

 

[PhilDavid]

Tesla has improved their CPO process and if you are patient you can find a decent car for $40-something that will honestly be incomparable to anything else you can find in that price range.

If you have driven a Tesla, you know there is nothing remotely like it available so why pay so much and end up with a car that you will regret every time you see a Tesla on the road?

Remember if you they present you a car in bad shape, you don;t have to buy it. be patient and I bet you will find a Model S to your liking in your price range and the wait and effort in finding it will be worth it.

 

[Bridor]

I am on my third Tesla - 2016 Model S with the P100D drivetrain. I have had nothing but great service on my 2014 Tesla Model S 85 and my 2016 Tesla Model X 60D. I will not drive another brand ever again. I have the Jaguar i-Pace and wish I had never bought it. There is just no other car company out there that provides an electric car that is actually better than any gas burning car. Go for the used Tesla and never look back.

Brent

 

[robg]

Remember if you they present you a car in bad shape, you don;t have to buy it. be patient and I bet you will find a Model S to your liking in your price range and the wait and effort in finding it will be worth it.

Hmm- as I understand it, the $2500 deposit is non-refundable and non-transferrable. In some cases, it sounds like they've refunded customers who refused delivery and/or allowed them to pick a different car but that was "goodwill" and not required per the policy. Someone here recently posted an even worse scenario where, despite intending to not hand over the check prior to an inspection, they were told that they had to complete the paperwork first. Even in cases where they "allow" (can't believe i'm even saying that) you to inspect the car prior to signing the paperwork, it sounds like they typically leave the doors locked so you can only inspect the outside. In fact, my guess is that when there are good deliveries its through heroic efforts by certain sales and delivery staff.

It's primarily this insane policy that pushed me over the edge toward giving up on buying a used Tesla. It's easier to forgive a botched delivery, or poor communication but this policy demonstrates a very customer-hostile attitude (from the top) which makes the other service issues people have more likely to be systemic and less the result of a few bad employees here and there. I can't think of any other car buying scenario where this is the case.

Of course, you could say "well the delivery sucks and the car might be dirty/dented/scratched/have issues but once you get those resolved the car is great". Also, I think the market has made adjustments for these policies in that Tesla's used cars often can be cheaper than other options (other dealers, and even private parties) plus you get the warranty. As it stands now, I'd have to be prepared to just accept the car in whatever condition it happens to be in and maybe mentally prepare to spend ~$1k and a ~month to get any cosmetic issues taken care of. Assuming they do enforce the that non-refundable deposit, it would likely never make sense to actually just walk away.

Even if there is a rational way to view this in economic terms, it still really rubs me the wrong way and makes me really question doing business with the company (like how else are they going to abuse me as a customer later if this how they sell me the car).

Hopefully this policy will change soon. It has to, doesn't it? It doesn't make any sense if you plan on being in business for more than a few weeks and comes across as having no faith in the product and are essentially trying to strong-arm or scam people into buying it.

It's a testament to how unappealing some of the other options to me that I'm even trying to rationalize all of this behavior. Partly, it's due to shock. Like, i can't actually believe a high-end global brand like Tesla would behave like this.

And sorry- all of this was not directed toward you. I'm just crystallizing some of the feelings I have about all of this.

 

[BlueOvalFan]

Someone here recently posted an even worse scenario where, despite intending to not hand over the check prior to an inspection, they were told that they had to complete the paperwork first. Even in cases where they "allow" (can't believe i'm even saying that) you to inspect the car prior to signing the paperwork, it sounds like they typically leave the doors locked so you can only inspect the outside.

It's primarily this insane policy that pushed me over the edge toward giving up on buying a used Tesla. It's easier to forgive a botched delivery, or poor communication but this policy demonstrates a very customer-hostile attitude (from the top) which makes the other service issues people have more likely to be systemic and less the result of a few bad employees here and there. I can't think of any other car buying scenario where this is the case.

That was not my expericance at all and first I’ve heard in all my research before buying. No one every told me I can expect (inside and vehicle prior to delivery.

In fact I was very clear that if the car was not properly represented in the pictures I would not buy it, and hey were clear that was ok. But on the other hand, if you are paying to have it shipped you’ll be in the hook for delivery charges.

 

[aerodyne]

To the OP...there are challenges to buying used, but a lot you can do to mitigate them. Consider meeting the SA in person and let them know your expectations and willingness to make their harried life easier by paying cash, and being flexible on delivery.

If problems arise, get a due bill to get them fixed and don't sell your daily driver until then.

If all goes, well, to misquote Tom Cruise, I think you will agree, "Used MS, there is no substitute"

 

[ucmndd]

Hmm- as I understand it, the $2500 deposit is non-refundable and non-transferrable. I.

Have you read the MVPA you agree to when placing the deposit? It’s pretty clear:

“Until your Vehicle is delivered to you, you may cancel your order at any time, in which case you will receive a full refund of your Order Payment.”

https://www.tesla.com/order/download-order-agreement?country=US&model_code=ms&is_new_vehicle=0

That might be a more reliable source than what you’ve heard on the internet.