theganjaguru
Guru
I'd hope that Tesla could go the BMW route and use carbon fiber. I've been left very impressed with my i3.
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I'd hope that Tesla could go the BMW route and use carbon fiber. I've been left very impressed with my i3.
how about glue and rivets, as is common in alu cars?Titanium is a very difficult material to work with and requires special welding techniques.
would be interesting to learn the cost of mass produced CF for cars. Since I'm into biking and they usually come in either steel, alu or CF, I have noticed a pattern: steel=dirt cheap, alu=mid priced, Cf=very expensive
When you have had a few bikes you learn that the jump in strength/weight from steel to alu is huge, like double or more (Part of the explanation might be that steel bikes are slapped together with little finesse in the cheapest possible way, whereas alu bikes are generally better designed and manufactured)
The strength/weight jump from alu to CF is definitely there, but not as huge.
Then there is of course titanium bikes which seem to cost same as CF. Any chance the i3 could have been build with titanium instead? Any chance Tesla might consider it for the cars?
I asked about CF in this short lived thread:
Is a CF Model 3 frame possible?
Only a few responses, but some interesting info. Another point is that making the fibers is tricky, so the raw material won't be cheap anytime soon.
Carbon would be nice, but I suspect there isn't time to do it for the 3. Putting together a supply chain and manufacturing capability is reportedly a PITA.
That said, Fiberforge had something that looked like it could have worked for auto-industry-speed manufacturing, but so far has failed to attract much attention or investment. They were reportedly working with BMW a few years back but BMW went with a different process. (And like fellow RMI spinoff company Bright Automotive, seems to have shut down).
I wonder what happened to the patent portfolio... Hmmmm...
Sounds promisingCarbon fiber might not be as expensive as you presume. BMW has certainly found a way to make it economically viable. BMW i3 Teardown Reveals Profitability After Only 20,000 Cars - Gas 2
The article's author made a slight mistake in quoting Sandy Munro of Munro & Associates. He said the i3 would be profitable at 20k/year, not after the first 20k sold.Carbon fiber might not be as expensive as you presume. BMW has certainly found a way to make it economically viable. BMW i3 Teardown Reveals Profitability After Only 20,000 Cars - Gas 2
An interview with Sandy Munro on the teardown. Haven't watched it yet (1 hr), but it might be interesting:
You think the annual sales volume of the M3 is going to equal the F150, the best selling vehicle in the US for decades? Not. A. Chance.One more data point. Ford F150. As of 2015, aluminum body, steel ladder frame. Starting MSRP, $26615.
Eventual annual volume is similar.
To be fair the Model 3 number is world wide, the F150 is US only. F150 doesn't sell much outside the US, while Tesla expects half or more sales outside the USA.You think the annual sales volume of the M3 is going to equal the F150, the best selling vehicle in the US for decades? Not. A. Chance.
So a few interesting things there...
The BIG one: Tooling and equipment for a steel body-in-white costs $480m. BMW's tooling and equipment for the I3 BIW estimated to cost $150M-ish.
A couple others:
Cycle time for parts is a few minutes - can run at "automotive line" speed without need for bagging and autoclaves, etc.
The roof panel is made from stitched-together carbon offcuts and is still a class-A surface. Very little carbon waste..
Mounting "nubs" are molded in, very few fasteners are used.
Detroit doesn't care about the teardown report, but Chinese interest is near-constant...
It's an interesting watch if you get a free hour.
Aluminum will cost way too much to keep the car at 35k. You cant have a costly battery pack and aluminum and a nicely teched up car for that small of a price. Steel/plastic parts body with fabric seats for a base model for sure.
A large percentage of the cost of aluminum is derived from the energy cost of producing it. With the cost of energy so low now, I wonder if using aluminum is feasible now.
I've just read an article explaining why that will not happen. Oil is gonna stay cheap for years to come.Oil will be back in more than 100$/barrel soon
I've just read an article explaining why that will not happen. Oil is gonna stay cheap for years to come.