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Another dumb idea, pedestrian low speed noise makers.

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by timk225, Jan 10, 2019.

  1. tomc603

    tomc603 Member

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    The discussion was about the noise makers. If you'd like to discuss pedestrian bridges, please feel free to start a thread about them. I'll be the first person in there saying they're quite feasible in lots of urban areas, and then can even add beauty to city streets when done right. I did not say I don't find them worthwhile, I pointed out that the cost difference for a solution that works (admittedly not perfectly) makes pedestrian bridges "beyond expensive".

    This is like arguing that all intersections should be round-abouts. Yes, they're safer than most other types of N-way intersection, and yes they keep traffic flowing much more optimally. But we don't have the physical space for them everywhere we have intersections. So, because of the physical and financial constraints, we use the optimal solution for the situation. Just like we add safety features like dedicated cross walks, pedestrian warning lights, pedestrian control lights, audible pedestrian signals for the hard of hearing, textured surfaces and wheel chair accessible ramps on cross walk entry and exit paths, ridged surfaces that are detectable with a walking stick for the visually impaired, metallic reflective surfaces on the ground at cross walks that can be detected by autonomous vehicles, and so on. All of those systems, in aggregate, save many lives while each one individually may seem insignificant.
     
  2. derotam

    derotam Member

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    Great, lets go back to the beginning... OP complained about the noise maker in general and said they would remove it. You said the "disregard for human life" etc. So can you point me to the study that I am disregarding, that says the quietness of HV/EV's is the cause for the higher incidence of pedestrian crashes between HV/EV's and ICE vehicles.
     
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  3. djplong

    djplong Member

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    I just hope that Tesla keeps Elon's sense of humor and allows us to configure the sound.

    I can't decide if I want to have my car doing "Charge of the Valkyries" or the spaceship sound form "The Jetsons".
     
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  4. derotam

    derotam Member

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    I think that would go against the regulation. Manufacturers have to keep the sound the same for the same model year for the same model so I don't see any customization.
     
  5. tomc603

    tomc603 Member

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    I've already linked it in the thread.
     
  6. tomc603

    tomc603 Member

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    You can not configure the sounds. The only variance allowed is that different trim levels of the same model may have slightly different sounds. Otherwise, a model within a brand needs to share the same noise. The point is to be able to identify the noise as coming from a vehicle, not space invaders.
     
  7. derotam

    derotam Member

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    Let me rephrase... please quote from your source where the study concludes that there is a link between the quietness of vehicles and crashes. It's not there. There was no study that even tried to find a link because they never asked people whether they heard the vehicle that hit them or not... They didn't look at police reports to look for a quietness link.

    My point with all this now is that the idea of putting noise makers on cars all started with a blind persons association claiming they "were concerned" about the quietness of these vehicles but there was no data that showed there was a problem. I am not saying that noise makers shouldn't be implemented, but that there is no study that shows they would help or that there is a problem in the first place.
     
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  8. derotam

    derotam Member

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    For those interested in the applicable studies and statute that started all of this...

    https://www.congress.gov/111/plaws/publ373/PLAW-111publ373.pdf

    https://www.nhtsa.gov/DOT/NHTSA/NVS/Crash%20Avoidance/Technical%20Publications/2010/811304rev.pdf
    this report references this study https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811204

    https://www.nhtsa.gov/DOT/NHTSA/NVS/Crash%20Avoidance/Technical%20Publications/2011/811496.pdf

    There is nothing that links crashes with the "quietness" of a vehicle. The studies show there is a higher incidence of crashes at low speeds with HV/EV vehicles but they only look at maneuver correlations, not any correlation based on the quietness of the vehicle.
     
  9. tomc603

    tomc603 Member

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    The NHTSA crashstats report here https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/812371. The latest update to the ongoing study. A single google search found these results for me months ago. It's not even hard to find, but here you are claiming there's no evidence supporting the legislation.

    For anyone too lazy, I'll quote the summary which explains the bit about the Honda hybrid that leaves its ICE running and everything.

    This report updates earlier National Highway Traffic Safety Administration research that compared pedestrian and pedalcyclist crash involvement rates for hybrid and electric (HE) vehicles to rates for internal combustion engines (ICE) vehicles in 16 States. In the earlier research in 2009, the pedes trian crash odds ratios (OR) were based on only 77 pedestrian crashes of five Honda and Toyota HE vehicle models at all speeds in all types of driving maneuvers (OR=1.40). A follow-on study in 2011 using case-control methodology had the same five HE vehicles involved in 186 pedestrian crashes (OR=1.35), and the pedestrian crashes increased to 244 when all HE models were included (OR=1.22). This current report updates those earlier efforts with data from the same 16 States, some with data now available up to 2011, in which the sample size of HE vehicles in all crashes is increased to 68,950 and resulting in 420 pedestrian crashes for all HE vehicle models. Using this larger sample size for analysis results in the pedestrian crash odds ratio of 1.20 for HE versus ICE when all vehicles models and speeds/maneuvers are included. In addition to this result, if HE versions of Honda models are re-categorized as ICE (since their engines keep running during low-speed maneuvers), then the pedestrian crash odds ratio is slightly modified to 1.21. Furthermore, if additional risk factors such as city size, vehicle maneuvers, and vehicle age are considered simultaneously, the HE/ICE pedestrian crash odds ratio tends to decrease slightly (from 1.20 to 1.17 approximately). The pedestrian odds ratio would be higher if the analyses are limited to low-speed maneuvers only (OR=1.52). In this report similar analyses are also performed using pedalcyclist crash data, and hybrid vehicles had approximately 50 percent higher likelihood of pedalcyclist crashes than ICE vehicles.​
    [/QUOTE]
     
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  10. derotam

    derotam Member

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    And yet there is no data in that report that links QUIETNESS to crashes, or even shows based on data that it is a contributing factor. It links HV/EV vs ICE to crashes but not the REASON for the crash. Again show me in the reference where there is a link to the reason for the crashes. Here are a few quotes from the doc:

    not based on data

    not based on data

     
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  11. adaptabl

    adaptabl Banned

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    Only activates at low speed.
     
  12. Garlan Garner

    Garlan Garner Banned

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    Your thread title starts with the word "another".

    List some of the others for us if you don't mind.
     
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  13. Webeevdrivers

    Webeevdrivers Active Member

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    You have the wrong guy. Im not the thread starter.
     

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