Anti-Tesla Gibberish

[adiggs]

I know Model S is luxury car with EV as great selling point but again that makes following argument

Okay I am new to tesla forum but not the car world. ModelS is great EV, but price is too high.

I don't drive a lot & annually around 9,000 max. If calculate the average of 25 it will be 360 gallons x 4 = 1440 (even if I drop average to 20 it will be $1800 per annum for gas)

Now if you look at the Model S price and gas expense, I am not sure what to make (considering I have 4 years-old ICE car)

I want a next car as EV but cost of existing EV make little sense (Nissan, ford, Honda & GM has limited range EV). Hybrid like the prius makes a lot of sense with 150k mile's battery warranty & reasonably price with solid dependability.

I am pretty sure people are buying Model S to feel the joy of driving great luxury car but saving on gas if you're comparing with many ICE car owners makes me wonder...

One comment I would add fastcars for you to consider - there are a variety of reasons to drive electric and/ drive a Tesla, and not all of them are money. I mention this because I frequently see people, including Tesla owners, conflate the impact to the environment, the impact to our economy and national security of transferring such a large percentage of our productivity to the oil and gas industry (both in and out of country), with the actual cost to operate the vehicle.

For some people, the personal expense to operate the vehicle, due to how many miles they drive, is actually lower or even free, than other cars they would choose. For them, the decision is easy.

Some people drive cars of this expense level anyway, and they find Model S (Roadster) to be a superior driving experience. Nothing else matters

For others, we want to shift the source of our energy used in personal transportation to a more sustainable and renewable form.

Yet others are concerned about our country and economy's dependence on oil, and want to change that.

Others are concerned about the rapid release of CO2 into the atmosphere.


For me personally, all of these are reasons to drive an electric car (Roadster for me - the car I want to be driving is Model X). The personal expense of driving an electric vehicle will simply never pan out. The competition was a 22 year old car that cost me $1000-1500/year all-in for transportation (gas, maintenance, insurance, registration, ..). I drive maybe 6k miles a year (though that's going up now that I have the Roadster - hmm..). The Roadster is cheaper to drive per mile for energy - the insurance is more expensive (though not greatly, oddly enough). The cost to buy the car means I'm going to need 50 or 100 years to break even on this deal. As an economic choice, the Roadster doesn't work.


So I say all of that to say this - if your only criteria is economic, then you will find widespread agreement here that unless you drive a pile of miles, and probably receive a standard business mileage reimbursement, then the Model S simply won't be an economically preferable choice to other options. Is it close enough to make other factors that are important to you affordable? Not everything is directly and accurately measurable in $$.

Maybe the unfortunate answer is that your personal electric revolution won't be able to start until some point in the future. The reality today, is that Tesla Model S is not a mass market car. It is cheaper to own than other 100k cars, but that doesn't transform it into a mass market car. We wall want that mass market car to arrive, and we would rather it be here sooner than later.

 

[Grendal]

I know Model S is luxury car with EV as great selling point but again that makes following argument

Okay I am new to tesla forum but not the car world. ModelS is great EV, but price is too high.

I don't drive a lot & annually around 9,000 max. If calculate the average of 25 it will be 360 gallons x 4 = 1440 (even if I drop average to 20 it will be $1800 per annum for gas)

Now if you look at the Model S price and gas expense, I am not sure what to make (considering I have 4 years-old ICE car)

I want a next car as EV but cost of existing EV make little sense (Nissan, ford, Honda & GM has limited range EV). Hybrid like the prius makes a lot of sense with 150k mile's battery warranty & reasonably price with solid dependability.

I am pretty sure people are buying Model S to feel the joy of driving great luxury car but saving on gas if you're comparing with many ICE car owners makes me wonder...

I've made this argument on many sites where people are crunching numbers and saying that buying the Model S makes no sense: People buy cars for a lot more reasons than overall cost. Looking at just the numbers why would someone ever buy a luxury car? Why buy an Audi, Lexus, Cadillac, BMW, Jaguar, Mercedes, or Infiniti when you can buy Toyota Yaris and save all that money? In the larger picture, why ever bother to buy a new car when buying used saves you a whole lot of money? Why does someone buy a Ferrari or Lambo? The answer to those questions is obvious. People buy cars for a lot more reasons than just what is the best value. EV's like the Model S (and when it comes out the Gen III) typically cost more money up front but you save money over time. That is a lot harder for people to understand since they have lived with the costs of gas cars for all of their lives.

 

[fastcars]

Thank you guys. Right now, cost is an important factor for me and many in America (driving or travelling with luxury is not everybody can afford)

I am trying to understand in my mind how I will save money selling ICE and buying Model S and looks like I answer my question (just trying to see what others have to say, and they are not wrong, and I am not wrong in my situation)
my last post in different thread.

I agree with you on and adding few more details because I am trying to understand how I will save the money buying model s.

I don't drive a lot & annually around 9,000 max. If calculate the average of 24 it will be 375 gallons x 4 (if gas price goes down saves more) = 1500.

Now if you look at the Model S price and gas expense, I am not sure what to make (considering I have ICE car cost me $21k five seater with 24 avg highway & city combine)

Model S cost starts from $70 to 100k depending on battery selection. Even at low end will be around $75k. I look at the difference of $54k (30yrs * 1500 =45k +9k for repairs) and not sure when I will start saving...

I know both cars won't last 30yrs, and Model S will have repairs as well after the warranty expires (consider an additional cost of battery, but I will leave that for now). You have to consider that tesla will be only one to repair your model s and it will be expensive to fix things.

Furthermore, consider additional insurance cost (twice compare to normal ICE I pay for) people pay for model s. I am reading people has many problems with models (not major) and takes the car to tesla (they are great in handling that)

I might be wrong but explain where I will be saving because I don't drive a lot and how it make sense for people to sell existing ICE and buy tesla.

 

[jeff_adams]

One factor left out is Model S safety. What price is your health worth? Do you know anyone that was killed or seriously injured in an accident? All current data seems to suggest that the Model S may very well be the safest passenger car on the road. Companies like Volvo built their reputation on safety (and their comparable models are not much cheaper). Throw in great looks, driving performance, low maintenance and operational costs and zero pollution. Can you see how this can be a compelling vehicle?

 

[fastcars]

I think most of cars in 100k range has pretty good safety features.

My current car has 6 air bags and vehicle stability system with excellent safety record.

I know many cars are safer compare to mine but if you fear for something pay more.

 

[jeff_adams]

I think most of cars in 100k range has pretty good safety features.

My current car has 6 air bags and vehicle stability system with excellent safety record.

I know many cars are safer compare to mine but if you fear for something pay more.

Tesla's secret ingredient your car doesn't have is the battery pack. It keeps the car's center of gravity very low (hard to roll over) and it is very rigid in a side impact. Of course other cars that expensive have good safety, but you get a lot more for your money. Looks like Maserati, acceleration like Porshe, comfort like Mercedes, econocomical like Honda, the list goes on and on.

 

[vfx]

Storage of an SUV...

 

[fastcars]

Storage of an SUV...

yes for extra 10k for two seats in trunk.

If you are paying loan add the APY to the cost.

In any case if you are buying car above 50k one should take very close look to model s (no question about that)

 

[vfx]

I was just adding to to list.

For that extra 10K you get.

• Looks like a beautiful Maserati,
• Accelerates like a Porsche
• Safe as the Volvo
• Storage space of an SUV
• Fuel economy of the Prius

• Can actually, over time have the ability to save fuel costs enough to pay for itself. Admittedly that is a long time but a ICE car with gasoline going up 8 percent every year can never do that.

"Save the planet" advantage, optional.

 

[fastcars]

I was just adding to to list.

For that extra 10K you get.

• Looks like a beautiful Maserati,
• Accelerates like a Porsche
• Safe as the Volvo
• Storage space of an SUV
• Fuel economy of the Prius

• Can actually, over time have the ability to save fuel costs enough to pay for itself. Admittedly that is a long time but a ICE car with gasoline going up 8 percent every year can never do that.

"Save the planet" advantage, optional.

you also get following

• Unknow reliability and dependability (check the forum post in repair section). Nothing out of ordinary but again tesla is good at fixing right now.
• high insurance premium
• high maintenance & repair cost after warranty expire (only tesla has knowledge to repair but again it might change in 10-15 years time)
• not counting replacement battery cost yet
• now 4wd (many count on this but again you can debate that)

Yes for 100k sure. "Save the planet" is a good selling point for model s or say it is a consolation prize for owning such a high end car.

Many people on this forum bought model s because of EV, and before that driving 20 to 30k ICE cars. All I am saying if you own 20 to 30k ICE car and sell it to buy model s make little sense. Otherwise, it is not brainer for people buying a luxury car like high end BMW, etc.

Again, we have not seen Model S reliability and dependability (pretty young car and company). I know someone who didn't purchase tesla for same reason, but I don't like to discuss anti-tesla things on this forum.

I think for entry level or gen 3 will have plenty of competitions as Prius has excellent reliability and dependability.

Again, people are buying model s for EV & that is selling point. I think as you mention prius provide excellent mileage and no range anxiety (even with supercharger I won't able to take trip I took in remote locations)

 

[bolosky]

I see this from time to time. Seems like part of the gish gallop against green energy. Other than transportation and power requirements food is carbon neutral. It is made from carbon captured by plants, and those plants then eaten by animals. If infact all human and animal waste and resulting decomposition gases were buried it would be carbon negative.

It's no such thing. You should probably read it before coming to this conclusion. It completely discounts the carbon in the food, it's only looking at the carbon used to grow and transport the food. Of course, as you observed with the Tesla, it would be possible in practice to grow food with zero carbon footprint by using only non-carbon producing energy sources, but that's not how it works today.

- - - Updated - - -

And just for the record, I'm very much in favor of green energy. (Or at least of reducing carbon emissions; I kind of have a soft spot for nuclear.)

 

[adiggs]

you also get following

• Unknow reliability and dependability (check the forum post in repair section). Nothing out of ordinary but again tesla is good at fixing right now.
• high insurance premium
• high maintenance & repair cost after warranty expire (only tesla has knowledge to repair but again it might change in 10-15 years time)
• not counting replacement battery cost yet
• now 4wd (many count on this but again you can debate that)

Yes for 100k sure. "Save the planet" is a good selling point for model s or say it is a consolation prize for owning such a high end car.

Many people on this forum bought model s because of EV, and before that driving 20 to 30k ICE cars. All I am saying if you own 20 to 30k ICE car and sell it to buy model s make little sense. Otherwise, it is not brainer for people buying a luxury car like high end BMW, etc.

Again, we have not seen Model S reliability and dependability (pretty young car and company). I know someone who didn't purchase tesla for same reason, but I don't like to discuss anti-tesla things on this forum.

I think for entry level or gen 3 will have plenty of competitions as Prius has excellent reliability and dependability.

Again, people are buying model s for EV & that is selling point. I think as you mention prius provide excellent mileage and no range anxiety (even with supercharger I won't able to take trip I took in remote locations)

I'm one of those folks who moved from a <$10k car, to about $80k for a used Roadster. As I previously mentioned it isn't an economic choice, and that will be true for many (maybe also for you).

For me, I'm not a car guy and never have been. Turns out I'm a volt head though - who knew? Anyway, cars are a functional device that get me from here to there, and they do so more efficiently than not if possible (driving a CRX, I am accustomed to 35 MPG on a bad tank of gas).

It also turns out that I've had the economic choice to drive either car available for awhile. Until the Tesla and Model X came along though, I didn't put it together. And then I realized I couldn't wait another two years to start driving electric, so I'm "making due" (*wheee*) with the Roadster in the meantime.

Maybe I have the ability to drive the Roadster now, because I've been driving the CRX for 22 years? (And I still like that car, even if it doesn't hardly get driven any more). My real point here is that in the absence of the Tesla Model X, there isn't another car of any make or model that I would spend $30k on (though clearly I can afford it), and I probably wouldn't even go $20k. Cars are functional devices that get me efficiently from here to there.

And then along came Model S, Model X, and my "settle for" car - the Roadster.


If you're looking for an argument that you can drive a Model S for less money than you can drive a $20k car of pretty much any make / model / efficiency, then I think you'll be hard pressed to find one. I'm sure we can find a corner case, but the reality is that a ~$70k purchase differential is going to swamp maintenance and energy savings. If you're trying to make that argument as justification for getting yourself into a Model S, then my immediate reaction is that you're probably better off being frustrated and impatient, and waiting 3-5 years for the mass market EV. Like many here, I believe Tesla will be the company that builds the compelling mass market EV first, but that doesn't mean we're right. The compelling wider market EV that DOES make economic sense to drive instead of a $20k car might come from somebody else, and we all hope it comes soon.

I just realized that one interesting thing about this community of car owners / drivers - there is a remarkably high percentage of people here who knew exactly what car they wanted, in many cases before they'd ever seen, sat in, or driven one, and then waited 2+ years to finally get one. I'm thinking that the idea of waiting for the car you want and can afford seems pretty reasonable around these parts (And yes, we understand and have shared your frustration at waiting too).


Side story, but only because I find it amusing and I hope you will too. When I went in to the Portland store to put down the Model X Signature deposit, I remember sitting their chatting with the store manager, and saying something like:

"can you believe there are people out there who put down all this money on a car that hadn't been designed, they hadn't sat in, much less driven; in some cases, they are even taking delivery before they actually see one".
*pen scratches over check*
"I mean - these people waited 2 or 3 years, some even longer I think, on the hope that the final product would be half as good as it's turned out to be"
*hands over check*
"and now, I'm doing it too"


Early Model S reservation holders (Signature or not), and original Roadster buyers (I'm thinking of the 1.5's especially) - you guys and gals are my heroes. I don't think I have a shot at the Model X without you.

Thank you.

 

[fastcars]

@adiggs,

Man I love CRX (like CRZ but like the old shape) don't talk about it because I want to drive one again for next 20 years... how about Honda make it electric one?

Anyway, I agree with what you're saying, and I am all in for EV, in fact my next car will be EV but not 100k.

As people mention that they want to save a planet from global warming etc in that case they can buy pretty good hybrid or EV (if you have access to charge it daily) right now (you don't need 100k for carpool lane what I mean)

Again, I am not comparing an apple to orange but tesla selling point is EV, and it seems many agree to that part.:biggrin:

 

[brianman]

@Mods - This discussion with fastcars doesn't belong in the Anti-Tesla Gibberish thread IMO. There's an interesting conversation going here and it's not "just another FUD piece" being covered.

 

[fastcars]

@Mods - This discussion with fastcars doesn't belong in the Anti-Tesla Gibberish thread IMO. There's an interesting conversation going here and it's not "just another FUD piece" being covered.

@brianman, is there anything wrong with conversation here about tesla... I thought anti-tesla might be a better place to talk about people who have reasonable doubt and curiosity as why people spend 100k on EV.

I was doing lot of read only on this forum so know where I should post.

 

[vfx]

@fastcars

Have you driven a Tesla?


(PS, I also think this conversion should be split to it's own thread)

 

[brianman]

@brianman, is there anything wrong with conversation here about tesla... I thought anti-tesla might be a better place to talk about people who have reasonable doubt and curiosity as why people spend 100k on EV.

I was doing lot of read only on this forum so know where I should post.

Sorry, I should have been clearer: It was meant as a compliment and a request to pull this discussion out of one of the "netherworld" threads.

 

[PeterK]

@brianman, is there anything wrong with conversation here about tesla... I thought anti-tesla might be a better place to talk about people who have reasonable doubt and curiosity as why people spend 100k on EV.

I was doing lot of read only on this forum so know where I should post.

Lately people keep inflating the price, in articles and now even here. I paid 90k and have the biggest battery and nearly every possible option. Only Performance models get above 100k, and there are plenty of 60s and less-loaded 85s that are well under the recently almost universally cited 90k figure.

As for me, I spent twice what I paid for my last car, a 2011 Audi A4 the S replaced. I would never pay that much for an ICE car, but now I have the Best. Car. Ever. I am supporting needed change, and have a far more practical car that drives like a sports car, rides like a luxury car, and can take the place of our minivan for most trips, carrying our five kids and other stuff - at nearly 4x the mileage and without tailpipe emissions. My first month's power bill was $53 for about 1000 miles of driving (including supercharging) - about what it cost to fill up my A4, nearly weekly (I drive the S more and the minivan less now).

 

[brianman]

As for me, I spent twice what I paid for my last car, a 2011 Audi A4 the S replaced. I would never pay that much for an ICE car, but now I have the Best. Car. Ever.

I was tempted to start a new thread, but I wasn't sure what I wanted to title it so I'll just reply here for now.

Many will dispute the claim across the entire car segment, so let me narrow it back down for a moment to BEV-only. Does someone have a comprehensive list of street-legal, in-production by 2012-2014 BEV cars (i.e. excluding bikes, trucks, buses, trains, planes)? I think I know many of them but I'd like to see a comprehensive list.

I'm curious who the closest competitors to Tesla's offerings on a feature basis alone. Thus, Rimac would count if it it's truly available for purchase for more than just 1 person on the planet.

 

[fastcars]

@fastcars

Have you driven a Tesla?


(PS, I also think this conversion should be split to it's own thread)

Yes, I drove it for few blocks (models 60 or 85 not sure).

If you drove v6 or v8 models don't feel out of this world as people make out.

I think people never drove such fast EV car & that's why keep thinking that model s is selling because of that combination (ev, luxury & fast top of that good-looking)