AP/FSD related crashes

[Dewg]

I don't recall this crash was discussed in this thread, but posting here anyways.

Tesla Autopilot Not Active During Fatal Newport Beach Crash in 2022

Authorities have determined that Autopilot was not active in a fatal accident involving a Tesla Model S Plaid in California last year. On May 12, 2022 the Model S Plaid crashed into construction equipment on […]

driveteslacanada.ca

Media were quick to name Tesla’s driver-assist features as a possible cause after the NHTSA included the accident as part of its probe into alleged Autopilot related accidents.

Uh huh...

 

[DanCar]

Jury rules that Tesla not liable when AP used in city streets and veers into curb.

Tesla wins bellwether trial over Autopilot car crash

A California state court jury on Friday handed Tesla Inc a sweeping win, finding the electric vehicle maker's Autopilot feature did not fail in what appeared to be the first trial related to a crash involving the partially automated driving software.

www.reuters.com

 

[Dewg]

Jury rules that Tesla not liable when AP used in city streets and veers into curb.

Tesla wins bellwether trial over Autopilot car crash

A California state court jury on Friday handed Tesla Inc a sweeping win, finding the electric vehicle maker's Autopilot feature did not fail in what appeared to be the first trial related to a crash involving the partially automated driving software.

www.reuters.com

Makes sense to me. For one, AP should not be used on city streets. This is the most telling portions:

Tesla denied liability for the accident and said in a court filing that Hsu used Autopilot on city streets, despite a user manual warning against doing so.

In Los Angeles Superior Court on Friday, the jury awarded Hsu zero damages. It also found that the airbag did not fail to perform safely, and that Tesla did not intentionally fail to disclose facts.

After the verdict, jurors told Reuters Tesla clearly warned that the partially automated driving software was not a self-piloted system, and that driver distraction was to blame.

 

[Dan D.]

Makes sense to me. For one, AP should not be used on city streets. This is the most telling portions:

Does it actually say that "AP should not be used on city streets" in the Model S manual. I didn't find that part. Just something about narrow roads, and "intended for use on highways" or some such words. Does it clearly say YOU MUST NOT use on city streets or just YOU SHOULD NOT. Is SHOULD NOT really enough of a statement to eliminate their liability?

Also - and perhaps not relevant to this exact jury trial, but more of a general question - if you had engaged it on the highway and it doesn't disengage when you get onto the exit ramp, and then it stays engaged on the city streets, is it your fault for not turning it off? If the car continued driving then maybe you'd think 'I guess it's ok then'?

 

[fobo]

is it your fault for not turning it off?

Of course it is, you’re always meant to be in control. Besides AP isn’t smart enough to make it off a highway anyway

 

[Dewg]

Does it actually say that "AP should not be used on city streets" in the Model S manual. I didn't find that part. Just something about narrow roads, and "intended for use on highways" or some such words. Does it clearly say YOU MUST NOT use on city streets or just YOU SHOULD NOT. Is SHOULD NOT really enough of a statement to eliminate their liability?

Also - and perhaps not relevant to this exact jury trial, but more of a general question - if you had engaged it on the highway and it doesn't disengage when you get onto the exit ramp, and then it stays engaged on the city streets, is it your fault for not turning it off? If the car continued driving then maybe you'd think 'I guess it's ok then'?

A judge and jury said it was enough of a statement with the verdict.

Being a level 2 ADAS system, yes it's your fault for not disengaging the system after leaving the freeway, as you are in control of the vehicle.

I could say the same thing for cruise control. If someone exits the freeway with cruise control enabled, and keeps it running, is it the vehicle's fault if it runs a red light and crashes? This is obviously an absurd question and everyone would understand you have to disengage cruise control when leaving the freeway. I think it's just a new technology that people are still getting used to and not fully understanding the capability before using it.

Put another way: if you assemble IKEA furniture without reading the manual, and it falls apart because you didn't heed the warning on page 3, who's fault is it for damaging your items?

 

[Dan D.]

The one part that remains to be tested in court is if a Level 2 system does a manoeuvre that is excessively quick or overpowering. Not saying that AP has done that, but some people do say it sometimes takes a strong pull to recover from an Autosteer mistake... and some people are not strong.

If a reasonably alert hands-on driver crashes because of that type of thing, I think there is a case for a dangerous product. We'll see, if that should ever be stated as a cause.

 

[Dewg]

The one part that remains to be tested in court is if a Level 2 system does a manoeuvre that is excessively quick or overpowering. Not saying that AP has done that, but some people do say it sometimes takes a strong pull to recover from an Autosteer mistake... and some people are not strong.

If a reasonably alert hands-on driver crashes because of that type of thing, I think there is a case for a dangerous product. We'll see, if that should ever be stated as a cause.

Los Angeles resident Justine Hsu sued in 2020, saying her Tesla Model S swerved into a curb while on Autopilot, and an airbag was deployed "so violently it fractured Plaintiff's jaw, knocked out teeth, and caused nerve damage to her face.”

 

[stopcrazypp]

The one part that remains to be tested in court is if a Level 2 system does a manoeuvre that is excessively quick or overpowering. Not saying that AP has done that, but some people do say it sometimes takes a strong pull to recover from an Autosteer mistake... and some people are not strong.

If a reasonably alert hands-on driver crashes because of that type of thing, I think there is a case for a dangerous product. We'll see, if that should ever be stated as a cause.

Los Angeles resident Justine Hsu sued in 2020, saying her Tesla Model S swerved into a curb while on Autopilot, and an airbag was deployed "so violently it fractured Plaintiff's jaw, knocked out teeth, and caused nerve damage to her face.”

The plaintiff didn't claim it was too quick or overpowering to take over. Instead they were trying to claim Tesla misled the plaintiff in to believing the vehicle can drive itself. Most of the lawsuits so far don't come from an angle that acknowledges that AP or FSD places full responsibility on the driver while focusing focus on the driver having no possibility of overriding the system as the basis for suing. So far it doesn't seem there have been instances of this.

 

[DanCar]

WSJ video with at least one error, of drunk driver crashing and injuring 5 police officers.

Error that I noticed is that it says autopilot automates lane changes, which it does not.

 

[JB47394]

WSJ video with at least one error, of drunk driver crashing and injuring 5 police officers.

And the lawsuit by the injured officers is against Tesla, claiming that autopilot is responsible for the crash. Something tells me that the lawyer is smarter than his clients. He'll get paid and they won't.

 

[DanCar]

Child runs in front of a Tesla.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1692916195194724494

 

[Mullermn]

Child runs in front of a Tesla.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1692916195194724494

Good to see a real example (with a positive outcome) after the stream of ‘I made this ludicrously poor simulation of a child and tossed it in front of the car and it didn’t brake!’ videos on YouTube.

 

[kabin]

Child runs in front of a Tesla.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1692916195194724494

Good job stopping in time. The driver must have been distracted to not see that.

FSD might have avoided contact if it didn't turn into the direction the child was running as the adult appeared to stay at the double yellow line. But it's a split second guess FSD makes a second or more earlier whereas a normal human could make split second, last moment control changes.

 

[Zilla91]

Did it stop in time? Looks like it struck the child to me...

 

[Dewg]

Did it stop in time? Looks like it struck the child to me...

No, it definitely hit her. AEB doesn't avoid the collision, it tries to minimize it. What I don't understand is how the driver didn't see them earlier and start slowing. Hope the little girl is okay.

 

[Terminator857]

In a test simulation: Tesla runs over fake pedestrian that falls off car.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1729535633910046872

 

[AndrewZ]

Even if FSD goes non-Beta, that's just the overall software package -- Autosteer on City Streets will still be Beta.

Otherwise not sure what people are expecting from this considering every Autopilot module except Autopark remains Beta to this day, it's just buried in the manual.

 

[Mullermn]

Even if FSD goes non-Beta, that's just the overall software package -- Autosteer on City Streets will still be Beta.

Otherwise not sure what people are expecting from this considering every Autopilot module except Autopark remains Beta to this day, it's just buried in the manual.

You can thank Google for ‘innovating’ the idea that ‘beta’ means can’t be arsed to commit to this working rather than we’re pretty sure this is ready for imminent release, which is what it used to mean.

 

[DanCar]

Tesla’s Autopilot and Full Self-Driving linked to hundreds of crashes, dozens of deaths

When it was time to react, often it was too late.

www.theverge.com

Hundreds of crashes and some deaths linked to driver inattention.