good ponts- I agree with Cook mission and ego. A full on auto or a major collaborative with Tesla would be a signature achievement for him in a wholly new space
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
good ponts- I agree with Cook mission and ego. A full on auto or a major collaborative with Tesla would be a signature achievement for him in a wholly new space
@michiganmodel, while I have been extremely skeptical of the idea that Apple will get into the car business beyond simply offering CarPlay to manufacturers, your post has made me reconsider my position. Your key point, that Apple wants total control over product design and will not accept their software running on anything less than a stellar hardware platform, is compelling. Thanks for posting.
Last edited:
Appreciated, and will consider.
I see that Apple has hired former sr R&D exec from Mercedes, because Tesla pinched his Apple predecessor.
It must be an exciting time to be a rising star in the automotive industry. I'm guessing that 20 years ago, senior designers, logistics specialists, manufacturing layout experts, etc. had comfortable but boring career ladders. Now they get phone calls from the likes of Tesla and Apple (or Fisker...). The HR departments at MB, Audi/VW, etc. must be in turmoil.
stealthology
Member
it's very likely what Apple is working on is a city type, smaller EV. Think amazing range, and for once think a small EV which actually looks appealing.
I would love to see a compact and beautiful long-range EV with a seamless Apple UI (yes I am an Apple fan and own a MacBook Air, iPad, and iPhone).
That would be a refreshing change from the ugly EV econobox compliance cars. And it would sell for a premium, and be worth it.
But I'm still not convinced Apple is going to make an EV. Maybe...
That would be a refreshing change from the ugly EV econobox compliance cars. And it would sell for a premium, and be worth it.
But I'm still not convinced Apple is going to make an EV. Maybe...
This is exactly what's going on. Living in Michigan, I have the benefit of seeing first hand Tesla and Apple's recruiting efforts. My former next door neighbor is a retired electrical engineer for Chrysler. Words can't describe how excited he was to see my Model S because he spent 30 years engineering around the internal combustion engine, knowing that electric was the future. Because of my Tesla Fandom, countless friends, family, etc. in the automotive industry notify me when the receive a call from a recruiter to interview for Tesla (and now Apple). A family friend (engineer at Nissan) received a call from a recruiter about 4-6 weeks ago to interview for the Apple project. Jokingly, I told him to interview with Apple to find out the details of the project. He is in his mid to late 20s, which demonstrates Apple is actively recruiting engineers from both ends of the spectrum (from experienced executives to engineers with a few years of experience).
I do not believe Apple is going to make an EV or a battery pack. I believe they are designing an EV. I have spent an absurd amount of time talking to engineers and suppliers here in Michigan what the likelihood of Apple becoming an automotive manufacturer. Bottom line: 99% of automotive engineering, design, and manufacturing is not sexy. It is power train design, air bag systems, brake systems, safety systems, governmental compliance, etc., etc. The 1% that everyone here talks about is the easy and sexy stuff: infotainment, connected-digital car, autonomous driving. So, once Apple ventures down the rabbit hole of manufacturing the automobile, they will realize there is a lot of heavy lifting required in order to get to that 1%. But, here's the feedback that I found most interesting: Apple manufactures great hardware. And the hardware in current automotive systems is very basic and does not hold a candle compared to an iPhone. More specifically, the micros in a car for, say an airbag system, is nowhere near as powerful or complex as an iPhone. So, Apple could design, engineer, and manufacture some killer automotive systems. Systems that would not generate any buzz or "cool" factor in these forums or on the Internet. (For example, no one started a thread titled "Apple could make the coolest Airbag Control Module. Think about it!!!"). No auto manufacturer would pay Apple to develop these systems because they would be very expensive (if Apple was the supplier) compared to existing suppliers. And Apple would only manufacture automotive parts if they controlled the future of that product line (Apple is not developing components for an Aztek only to find out it is horrendous and will be discontinued). However, if Apple partnered with an automotive company that was increasingly interested in vertical integration, it would make sense. I (and many of the engineers I spoke with) could foresee Apple and this automotive partner (i.e., Tesla) developing systems to simplify the manufacturing process and further vertically integrate the entire car.
Two final points:
Regarding Tim Cook and his legacy. I don't believe this relationship or acquisition could happen under Steve Jobs. I never met Steve (but I did have an email exchange with him) so I can't comment on his personality other than the media accounts and the Issacson book. But, he would want to front run the project and make it "his" car. It is well documented that Jobs did not credit John Ive (and others) on many of the product designs (until late in his life / career). Tim Cook is the opposite, he is playing the long game and does not care to have his name personally on every patent or to be the Sage on the Stage - to the extent Steve did. For example, Tim's ego did not stop him from recognizing Apple's streaming music service was lacking, which resulted in an acquisition of a company called Beats by Dre. I wonder if Steve Jobs would have acquired Beats or if he would have said "Apple can do better." I do not see Steve Jobs buying a company that is associated to one individual to the extent that Tesla is associated with Elon Musk. Steve Jobs would want to build an Apple Car; and he would want the world to know that he (and Apple) made the best car. I do not believe this is an oversimplification: under Steve Jobs, the Apple brand was to stand alone. For example, Verizon wanted their logo on the back of the iPhone, and Jobs nixed it. Under Jobs, it was an Apple product first and only. But under Tim, Apple owns a company called Beats by Dre. It’s basically a wholly owned subsidiary, not an “Apple” product. Another reason Tim could make a Tesla / Apple relationship work is Tesla has Google Maps in the car and Google involved in other ways (Page and Brin are friends of Musk and initial investors, etc.). I do not know how the same guy that famously said the following quote could work with Tesla, given their relationship with Google, "I will spend my last dying breath if I need to, and I will spend every penny of Apple's $40 billion in the bank, to right this wrong," Jobs said. "I'm going to destroy Android, because it's a stolen product. I'm willing to go thermonuclear war on this." Tim goes about business much differently and would not let Google cloud his vision of this automotive opportunity. Tim's legacy is not about putting his name on a product, it's about being the anti-Steve Balmer. He took over the #1 corporation in the world, and he is going to run up the score. Conventional wisdom was Apple would hurt (or tumble) once Steve Jobs passed away. Tim's legacy is making the world's best company even better ("best" in terms of financial standing, brand loyalty, market share in certain industries, etc.). Tim's legacy is doing what no one thought was possible.
One last point: I do not believe Apple intends to build an automotive battery. That road leads to two destinations: 1) Apple uses it in their automobile, which I do not believe they are manufacturing or 2) supplying batteries to other automakers. If Tesla is delaying large scale battery programs until after construction of the Giga factory, how does Apple manufacture the scale to manufacture batteries for their own cars or to supply other manufacturers. More importantly, who would buy an automotive battery from Apple if automotive manufacturers are not committing to Tesla at this point in time (and Tesla is an automotive manufacturer, Apple is not).
My speculation is Apple has an automotive team designing a car and possibly a battery. Once they complete a design, they will start (or continue) to talk with automotive manufacturers to build it. I would love to be a fly on the wall when Apple brings automotive engineering ideas to any automotive manufacturer. Apple will have the same stalled conversations that Tesla had. Stated differently, if Tesla and BMW (two strong engineering-based automotive companies, mind you) could not commit to an automotive program, how does Apple and anyone else?
Again, my premise is: if Apple is interested in entering the EV market, there is only one automotive company they would be able to work with: Tesla.
Last edited:
stealthology
Member
I was pretty skeptical at first as well, but it seems like that's the direction they're headed in. Not worried at all about the impact on Tesla, esp. since it doesn't seem like they're initially targeting the same type of vehicle.
I would be worried if I were all other auto manufacturers though, lol. They now see not only Tesla, but Apple taking mass market BEV's seriously. Big LOL @ the ex-GM CEO warning Apple that making cars is hard. I think Apple will be alright, buddy. It will surely take some time, but it won't be too hard for Apple can find the talent, and it certainly has the resources ($178B in cash) to make this a reality if they really want to.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
Martin Eberhard, Ian Wright and Marc Tarpenning had big LOL at the legacy OEMs at the beginning too. Then they struggled to get a car to customers. Delays after delays. They thought they could just buy gliders from Lotus and electric drive units from West Coast EVs and cobble together a battery pack from 18650 cells and voila you have a $100k roadster. Turns out the auto business was so far out their wheelhouse they didn't survive with the company to make it to Tesla 2.0.
Turns out Tesla needed investment and help from Toyota and Mercedes to avoid bankruptcy. Learned the car business is much more difficult than they thought.
Apple has more room for error with their cash horde. But if they actually mass market an automobile they too will find out the legacy OEMs are not 100% stupid and that Apple is not 100% stocked with geniuses.
Unlike mobile phones,TVs,digital watches, and tablets automobiles is not an Apple adjacent business.
I feel this keeps getting dropped. Apple doesn't make anything. They subcontract the actual manufacturing. They design hw, write software and market. So they are one more degree away from making cars than say Foxconn.
of course, billions of dollars can change anything, and I suspect Apple does want to get into this large market. But, let's not say "apple can make millions of phones, it can make cars too if it wants".
I agree with both of these comments. I'm unclear what percentage of an EV Foxconn can assemble. We know they are investing in EV manufacturing: Foxconn invests in building electric cars in China | PCWorld
I'd imagine if Foxconn follows through and their EV manufacturing quality and capacity was sufficient, Tesla would benefit first. Simply because Tesla has a car designed and engineered (and Tesla needs a manufacturing presence in China). As Elon (and others before him) stated, manufacturing automobiles is very complex (especially compared to manufacturing iPhones and touch screens, etc.) I'm intrigued to see what components and / or what EVs Foxconn manufactures in the future. I highly doubt if Apple is designing an EV, Foxconn manufactures the entire EV for numbers reasons (logistics, quality, governmental regulation standards, etc.).
What are your thoughts about protecting manufacturing IP in China these days? These are slightly dated data points -- my former industry had many problems with clone factories springing up in China JUST before our plants came online (approval process involved submission of detailed plans for 8 and 9 figure buildings).
I believe neither Tesla nor Apple will manufacture any significant EV components (significant in terms of IP: power train, batteries, etc.) through Foxconn (or any Chinese subcontract manufacturer) for this very reason. If China (or anyone) had EV technology worth manufacturing, China would "borrow" that IP. This goes back to GM's attempt to sell the Volt in China: China wanted GM to turn over its IP in order to sell the Volt in China - Senators fear China 'shakedown' for U.S. electric car secrets
If China required GM to turn over their IP to sell EVs (or plug in hybrids), I'd imagine GM (and everyone their after), is highly cautious to manufacture EV technology in China.
Just to clarify my previous point, if anyone would benefit from Foxconn manufacturing EVs or EV components in China, it would be Tesla because they have an actual product (not a concept) for Foxconn to begin production once their facility is operational. The key is the battery production and assembly. Its not clear to me if Tesla's open-patent stance includes their battery technology. I would make an educated guess it does not given their relationship with Panasonic.
I believe Tesla will open and operate their own factory that manufactures the battery and most of the car assembly and contract out the lesser components to Foxconn or another Chinese subcontract manufacturer.
If Apple is looking into the EV market, they are having this same conversation regarding production, and China is not the same viable option as it is for the iPhone, iPad, etc.
My belief is, if Apple is interested in participating in the EV market, Tesla is best partner to manufacture. Granted, Tesla has scalability challenges (it's a completely different game to manufacture in the 250,000 to 1 million unit volume than Tesla's current production). However, the manufacturers that can manufacture the volume and quality Apple would require is very small. I'd argue Toyota would be the only manufacturing in terms of quality, but there is zero change Toyota subcontracts manufacturing capacity for Apple.
I'd argue the better alternative for Apple is to share the growing pains of scaling up with Tesla than to find an auto manufacturer that meets Apple's quality standards and company culture.
muleferg
Active Member
Yes, and to clarify, my question also relates to a multinational building a wholly-owned facility in China. [Believe the data points referenced were wholly-owned, some may have been with "partners".]
For a certain dollar amount, I'm certain you could find someone to replace the chrome Tesla "T" with a chrome Apple Logo.
Depending on the price, I'd contribute to a crowd source effort because once you post a picture of a Tesla with a chrome Apple logo on the Internet, these Apple rumors (and stock price) would hit an all time high.
Last edited:
<EvilLaugh>hehehe</EvilLaugh>Black out the chrome and take the picture in a setting that makes it look like a spy-cam pic of a test mule, and we're at new ATHs.
Similar threads
