Arbitration decision of my PCS dispute

[GeorgiaLeslie]

I agree with trying to get the old PCS to inspect it, but it's probably too late now. I'm pretty sure the service center just threw it in the trash and it's probably long gone by now.

When I told the Tesla Service Center that I wanted the old PCS they refused. They asked why I wanted it and I said because I just did. Asked again, I said because it's mine. They said it's against Tesla policy and wouldn't agree to it. I have postponed the repair until my car won't charge at home anymore.

 

[GeorgiaLeslie]

I know that many forum members in this thread have been waiting to hear the outcome of my arbitration dispute with Tesla over our PCS breakdowns.

I can report that yesterday I finally received notification that the arbitrator decided for Tesla —not for me. More specifically, the arbitrator agreed with Tesla that the components in the High Voltage Battery Service Panel are separate from the High Voltage Battery and Drive Unit powertrain, and thus not covered under the latter's warranty.

If forum members would care to read my reaction to the arbitrator's decision, they are welcome to open this post on my website.

I am very sorry to hear of that decision, though I agree with you - it's not a big surprise. Big money wins again. I can appreciate all of your diligence, headache and heartache in following through with this. I (with my my 2018 Model 3 LR with FSD, 93K miles) am souring a bit also. I love the car and have a hard time imaging not having FSD available, but the headaches that come with these perks are making me rethink things. Thank you so much for sharing your PCS journey with us. Mine is still not repaired and I can't decide if it is worth the $2K or not, I'm kind of gambling on if the last component will go out or not where I can no longer charge at home. I seem to remember when I purchased my car that one of the benefits was the lack of maintenance it would need. Hahahahahaha

 

[stopcrazypp]

When I told the Tesla Service Center that I wanted the old PCS they refused. They asked why I wanted it and I said because I just did. Asked again, I said because it's mine. They said it's against Tesla policy and wouldn't agree to it. I have postponed the repair until my car won't charge at home anymore.

Are you paying out of pocket? If you are, in many states there are laws that require them to give the old part back unless they can demonstrate there is a consistent core charge. Note for some you may need to make the request in writing before repair starts.

I didn't find the relevant law for Georgia from a quick search, but did find a Georgia state government guide that suggests to request replaced parts from mechanics:

Mechanics

Independent mechanics usually charge less than dealerships, therefore they may be a better bet for typical repairs.

consumered.georgia.gov

Edit, found this 50 state guide on auto repair laws, unfortunately Georgia does not appear to have a parts return law, at least at the time of the guide:

https://members.technetprofessional.com/members/servlet/servlet.FileDownload?file=01513000002jNY0

 

[gearchruncher]

TN does have a parts return law. Maybe take a quick trip up north and have it replaced there? (assuming out of pocket of course)

 

[Rocky_H]

I seem to remember when I purchased my car that one of the benefits was the lack of maintenance it would need. Hahahahahaha

Once again, repairs are not maintenance.

 

[MySilverBullet]

If anyone wants to fight this, you really need to go about it systematically. The first place to start has to be the written warranty for the battery. Which is this (with a bunch of capacity and fire stuff removed):








Notice the warranty specifically covers the battery UNIT. In fact, the warranty on the battery is void if you service or open the UNIT. Which you have to do to replace the PCS. (Side note, pretty funny Tesla tells you ignoring warnings can cause denial of warranty, yet they hide the PCS warning from you so you won't notice you have something that needs to be repaired under warranty)

Now let's look at how Tesla tracks the "battery" in their own parts catalog:
View attachment 907118

It's a battery "assembly." It is not possible to buy a battery without buying the PCS- notice how the batteries carry terms like 1PH - that means 1 phase, which is defined by the PCS inside. So if Tesla does replace the battery under warranty, they will replace the PCS. But if the PCS fails, that's not part of the battery warranty? That's some circular logic.

But wait, doesn't Tesla sell the PCS individually? Yes, they do. And in their catalog, it's specifically under the category called "HV battery electrical COMPONENTS"
View attachment 907123
Which makes the PCS clearly a component of the battery, yet the warranty covers the battery UNIT, which any reasonable person would consider to be a group or components. There are a bunch of components in there that would completely prevent the car from working- like contactors, busbars, and fuses. Is Tesla going to argue that if a contactor fails, that's not part of the battery either because it's in the penthouse? What if the PCS fails in a way that it causes the whole car to shutdown, such as a 12V DC/DC conversion failure?

So- Tesla won't sell a battery without a PCS inside, yet according to Tesla it is not part of the battery "unit"? And if you want to repair the PCS yourself, you must open the battery- which voids your battery warranty. Which means only Tesla can service your car to maintain your warranty, which would be illegal under the Moss-Magnuson act. An yes, Tesla considers the penthouse part of the battery, the cover for the penthouse is literally listed as a HV battery component:
View attachment 907124

This seems like a clear slam dunk if you took it to any court with a well laid out set of facts- and all you need to do that is Tesla's own published warranty and their parts catalog to prove they are denying you coverage on something they themselves internally define as an assembly. Is Tesla really going to succeed at convincing a court that a battery assembly is different from a battery unit? Especially with Contra proferentem- which means that when contract terms are ambiguous, courts find against the author of the contract.

I hope that people that do get charged for a PCS that is supposedly not under warranty take this to Small Claims or arbitration.

Hi All,
I'm a new member here, but I wanted to post an update on my arbitration dispute for my recent PCS failure on my 2018 Model 3. I used many of the excellent arguments that were poster here by @gearchruncher (thanks so much for this!). I filled for arbitration through the National Center for Dispute Settlement (NCDS) which was referred to the California Dispute Settlement Program (CDSP) due to my location. I selected a documents only arbitration so that it would be review by a 3-panel arbitration team. I just received notice my request for reimbursement of the PCS cost was denied. While I'm very disappointed, I'm considering filing for a second arbitration through the American Arbitration Association. I've attached a document here with the case that I made. If anyone is interested on providing comments on my argument and how I can improve it for a second filing, I'd appreciate it! I don't feel comfortable attaching the arbitration ruling letter here on a forum, but I can provide it through separate communication if someone would like to see it.

 

[derotam]

Hi All,
I'm a new member here, but I wanted to post an update on my arbitration dispute for my recent PCS failure on my 2018 Model 3. I used many of the excellent arguments that were poster here by @gearchruncher (thanks so much for this!). I filled for arbitration through the National Center for Dispute Settlement (NCDS) which was referred to the California Dispute Settlement Program (CDSP) due to my location. I selected a documents only arbitration so that it would be review by a 3-panel arbitration team. I just received notice my request for reimbursement of the PCS cost was denied. While I'm very disappointed, I'm considering filing for a second arbitration through the American Arbitration Association. I've attached a document here with the case that I made. If anyone is interested on providing comments on my argument and how I can improve it for a second filing, I'd appreciate it! I don't feel comfortable attaching the arbitration ruling letter here on a forum, but I can provide it through separate communication if someone would like to see it.

Was there any kind of written order describing why they denied your claim?

 

[MySilverBullet]

Was there any kind of written order describing why they denied your claim?

Yes, there is a detailed written explanation. It seemed to validate most of the arguments that I laid out, but in the end it still sided with Tesla that the PCS is a separate component from the lithium ion battery.

 

[JohnZ27]

The PCS on my model 3 LR failed at around 45000 miles (vin 02xxxx) build May/2018. the first quote from the SC was around $1800. I saw lots of posts online saying it's only covered under the vehicle limited warranty. I decided to test out my luck so I asked them in the chat if the PCS is covered under the HV battery warranty, surprisingly they changed it to be covered under the battery warranty the next day. I'll post the invoice in this thread, hopefully some of you guys could use this to get it to be repaired under warranty.

 

[Yanquetino]

The PCS on my model 3 LR failed at around 45000 miles (vin 02xxxx) build May/2018. the first quote from the SC was around $1800. I saw lots of posts online saying it's only covered under the vehicle limited warranty. I decided to test out my luck so I asked them in the chat if the PCS is covered under the HV battery warranty, surprisingly they changed it to be covered under the battery warranty the next day. I'll post the invoice in this thread, hopefully some of you guys could use this to get it to be repaired under warranty. View attachment 946276

You've got to be kidding me! So NOW they've decided they WILL cover the components in the Battery Service Panel under the Battery Warranty…??? Well, hell… you can bet they're not going to reimburse me for paying for the repair myself after nearly a year of waiting for arbitration to settle the dispute. Maybe my efforts, and the growing number of subsequent breakdowns and complaints, helped them finally admit that they'd installed faulty battery PCS in their vehicles and need to fix the problem. At least… I hope that will henceforth prove to be the case for all other owners whose PCS start to break down.

 

[stopcrazypp]

You've got to be kidding me! So NOW they've decided they WILL cover the components in the Battery Service Panel under the Battery Warranty…??? Well, hell… you can bet they're not going to reimburse me for paying for the repair myself after nearly a year of waiting for arbitration to settle the dispute. Maybe my efforts, and the growing number of subsequent breakdowns and complaints, helped them finally admit that they'd installed faulty battery PCS in their vehicles and need to fix the problem. At least… I hope that will henceforth prove to be the case for all other owners whose PCS start to break down.

I would not necessarily say that. One SC willing to cover it under HV warranty does not set a precedent. Taking the invoice to other SCs to use as "proof" doesn't generally work. We've seen this time and time again for many different issues. You can only conclude they have changed the policy if they consistently do this without people having to push them.

 

[Yanquetino]

I would not necessarily say that. One SC willing to cover it under HV warranty does not set a precedent. Taking the invoice to other SCs to use as "proof" doesn't generally work. We've seen this time and time again for many different issues. You can only conclude they have changed the policy if they consistently do this without people having to push them.

That's exactly why I said "maybe" and "I hope" —certainly not a conclusion. NOT holding my breath with Tesla. Ever.

 

[jjrandorin]

The PCS on my model 3 LR failed at around 45000 miles (vin 02xxxx) build May/2018. the first quote from the SC was around $1800. I saw lots of posts online saying it's only covered under the vehicle limited warranty. I decided to test out my luck so I asked them in the chat if the PCS is covered under the HV battery warranty, surprisingly they changed it to be covered under the battery warranty the next day. I'll post the invoice in this thread, hopefully some of you guys could use this to get it to be repaired under warranty. View attachment 946276

Has that work actually been completed and you have not been charged (or is this just the pre authorization)?

 

[Rocky_H]

Has that work actually been completed and you have not been charged (or is this just the pre authorization)?

Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if this made sense to someone at the service center (not knowing how their policy was), but then if someone from corporate reviews it, they may correct that and switch it to not covered.

 

[davewill]

Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if this made sense to someone at the service center (not knowing how their policy was), but then if someone from corporate reviews it, they may correct that and switch it to not covered.

Well, the thing to do, then, is get it in there and done ASAP. Once the repair is complete, they would have an almost impossible time trying to grab money. Consumer protection for vehicle repair is generally pretty strict.

 

[Rocky_H]

Well, the thing to do, then, is get it in there and done ASAP. Once the repair is complete, they would have an almost impossible time trying to grab money. Consumer protection for vehicle repair is generally pretty strict.

*pulls Community Chest card*
"Service center error in your favor: collect PCS repair"

 

[stopcrazypp]

Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if this made sense to someone at the service center (not knowing how their policy was), but then if someone from corporate reviews it, they may correct that and switch it to not covered.

Yeah, I recall things being reversed before and not sure if it got jinxed or if Tesla may have caught things from monitoring the forum (much higher risk of this if the service is scheduled very far into the future). Makes sense to hold off celebrating until the service is actually performed.

 

[JohnZ27]

Has that work actually been completed and you have not been charged (or is this just the pre authorization)?

No it has not benn completed yet, my appointment is on the 16th. I'll update you guys once it gets fixed.

 

[JohnZ27]

*pulls Community Chest card*
"Service center error in your favor: collect PCS repair"

yeah fingers crossed, hope they don't pull an uno reverse card on me lol.

 

[jjrandorin]

No it has not benn completed yet, my appointment is on the 16th. I'll update you guys once it gets fixed.

I mean, you are free to share whatever you want but If it were me, I absolutely, positively, 1000000% would not have shared anything at all until the service was completed and I didnt pay. We dont have any official link with Tesla here, but there have absolutely (100%) been times where something here has impacted someone.

I can very clearly remember threads with people selling car reservations then a few being told "your reservation was canceled because we saw you were selling it" even though a user name doesnt tie to a specific person, and TMC is not linked to Tesla.