Arbitration decision of my PCS dispute

[gearchruncher]

The PCS is one module that has three "phases" inside it. The $1800 repair is to replace the whole module, which means you get all 3 phase electronics new.

Thanks, I see that now.
I know you had it in quotes- but they aren't phases, which could be confusing since the USA uses 1 phase service. It's just 3 identical blocks inside one PCS module. Tesla also sells a 32A one that is only two blocks for the lower spec cars. But the reason it's 3 blocks is that in countries with 3 phases, the basic design can be used there with minimal changes as well.

As Tesla says in their own parts manual, under "HV Battery Electrical Components:

I really wonder which of the 40 items listed under "HV Battery Electrical Components" are covered by the "Battery warranty" and which ones aren't....

Tesla's pretty bad at warranty language. Tell me this doesn't apply to the new "12V" li-ion batteries (direct quote from the warranty booklet):

 

[Yanquetino]

So, if it's so clear what is and isn't the battery, please list EXACTLY what components count.
Cells? Cooling connections? Fuses? Interconnects? BMS? Enclosure? Shunts?

What's interesting is that even Tesla itself calls the PCS part of the battery system in their own parts catalog:

View attachment 893823

View attachment 893822


Also, a huge problem here: Tesla won't sell you one of these to repair it yourself once out of warranty, which is problematic in a world of right to repair laws:

View attachment 893824


@Yanquetino - Thanks for trying this and following up. Next time I guess someone needs to try small claims.

I wish I had found this info to include in my arguments for the arbitrator, as I think it further bolsters my case. Still… would it have made a difference? Mmmm… kinda doubt it.

 

[gearchruncher]

At least the FUCAs are cheap and relatively easy to replace in a driveway with some basic tools.

Yeah, but the parts from Tesla also used to be about $500 per side. The big change is that they now will sell you the parts for about $50 and then also discount the labor.

In this case, Tesla won't even sell you the parts (maybe reasonably given the HV situation) but in that case they really need to price this fairly if they do have a design or batch issue. I actually bet they would do the right thing here if we could prove a high failure rate.

 

[android04]

Thanks, I see that now.
I know you had it in quotes- but they aren't phases, which could be confusing since the USA uses 1 phase service. It's just 3 identical blocks inside one PCS module. Tesla also sells a 32A one that is only two blocks for the lower spec cars. But the reason it's 3 blocks is that in countries with 3 phases, the basic design can be used there with minimal changes as well.

As Tesla says in their own parts manual, under "HV Battery Electrical Components:
View attachment 893971

I really wonder which of the 40 items listed under "HV Battery Electrical Components" are covered by the "Battery warranty" and which ones aren't....

Tesla's pretty bad at warranty language. Tell me this doesn't apply to the new "12V" li-ion batteries (direct quote from the warranty booklet):
View attachment 893974

Yeah, Tesla could definitely be much clearer in their language.

Also, to get a little more technical about the PCS (I like to DIY a lot of stuff) there are actually non-serviceable fuses inside it too. Like you said, the 3 "phases" in North America serve to distribute the current between the three circuit paths to reduce the load on the components in each path. They are called Phase A, B, and C in the Service Mode screen and each individual ones kWh lifetime is also tracked. See this video for what the PCS looks like inside

Here's a screenshot of my car in Service Mode where it shows the phases of the PCS. I was experimenting with how it divides up the current between the three based on how much current you tell it to charge at. In this picture I had set it to 34A to see if it would divide that evenly by 3, and it did.


Since there are protection fuses inside the PCS that are not user-serviceable, what is to say that a failure of one or two of the phases was not caused by a power surge or some other electrical issue?

 

[MP3Mike]

The warranty is on the battery and drive train, not everything attached to it.

Let's make up a scenario and see how you think it would play out. You have a Model 3 that where the basic warranty has expired, but your PCS is still working great and can charge at 48A. Your battery fails, or degrades to below 70%, and Tesla replaces it under warranty with a refurbished battery. Of course, the PCS is part of the battery, they don't move your good PCS to the refurb battery. Let's just say that the refurb battery comes with one of the questionable PCSs and a 16A charging module fails after a month.

By what you, and Tesla, are saying you are up the creek and have to pay to replace the PCS, as it isn't warrantied as part of the battery. Ok, maybe Tesla says that it would come with a standard parts warranty, 1-year/12k miles. But what if it failed in month 13? All the while your original PCS would have still been working fine if you had gotten to keep it.

IMO it is just stupid. There is a battery warranty, and as such everything you get when you buy a battery should be covered under that warranty, unless there is a specific exclusion called out. (Which there is not.)

 

[mspohr]

Let's make up a scenario and see how you think it would play out. You have a Model 3 that where the basic warranty has expired, but your PCS is still working great and can charge at 48A. Your battery fails, or degrades to below 70%, and Tesla replaces it under warranty with a refurbished battery. Of course, the PCS is part of the battery, they don't move your good PCS to the refurb battery. Let's just say that the refurb battery comes with one of the questionable PCSs and a 16A charging module fails after a month.

By what you, and Tesla, are saying you are up the creek and have to pay to replace the PCS, as it isn't warrantied as part of the battery. Ok, maybe Tesla says that it would come with a standard parts warranty, 1-year/12k miles. But what if it failed in month 13? All the while your original PCS would have still been working fine if you had gotten to keep it.

IMO it is just stupid. There is a battery warranty, and as such everything you get when you buy a battery should be covered under that warranty, unless there is a specific exclusion called out. (Which there is not.)

So many incorrect assumptions in your hypothetical case that it's difficult to know where to start... so I won't.

 

[gearchruncher]

Since there are protection fuses inside the PCS that are not user-serviceable, what is to say that a failure of one or two of the phases was not caused by a power surge or some other electrical issue?

It's pretty suspicious that Tesla hides the error when it fails (which the car totally knows about), and if it's under warranty they replace it without question, yet if it's out of warranty they deny it.

As you say, it shares the load evenly, pretty weird that a surge would take out only one "phase."

 

[android04]

It's pretty suspicious that Tesla hides the error when it fails (which the car totally knows about), and if it's under warranty they replace it without question, yet if it's out of warranty they deny it.

As you say, it shares the load evenly, pretty weird that a surge would take out only one "phase."

It would be great to get one of the independent EV repair shops to replace a faulty PCS and then open it up to see what caused it to fail.

 

[father_of_6]

It's pretty suspicious that Tesla hides the error when it fails (which the car totally knows about)

I wholeheartedly agree with this. We get an alert when we're out of windshield wiper fluid, but not a partial (or complete) failure of the PCS. Why is that?

 

[mspohr]

It's pretty suspicious that Tesla hides the error when it fails (which the car totally knows about), and if it's under warranty they replace it without question, yet if it's out of warranty they deny it.

As you say, it shares the load evenly, pretty weird that a surge would take out only one "phase."

You don't understand how electronics fail.
Not weird at all.

 

[Regaj]

Thanks, @Yanquetino, for making the effort, even if it was unsuccessful.

As an aside, regarding arbitration in general, it would be interesting to hear how many cases are decided for the plaintiff versus how many are decided - like here - for the corporate entity. The very word "arbitration" suggests neutrality and lack of bias... but in the real world I suspect that's anything but the case.

 

[gearchruncher]

You don't understand how electronics fail.

Oh, the irony. I'm an EE, and deal with high power transportation stuff all the time.
If you think fuses protect from surges... You're the one that doesn't understand how electronics fail, and why we put fuses on devices.

 

[MP3Mike]

Thanks, @Yanquetino, for making the effort, even if it was unsuccessful.

As an aside, regarding arbitration in general, it would be interesting to hear how many cases are decided for the plaintiff versus how many are decided - like here - for the corporate entity. The very word "arbitration" suggests neutrality and lack of bias... but in the real world I suspect that's anything but the case.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Everyone who pays for this should file an arbitration claim even if they are all denied. Why? Because each arbitration claims costs Tesla ~$2k, which is more than what it would cost them to perform the repair. And it costs you nothing other than a couple hours of your time.

I would even go as far as saying you should follow up with a small claims suit, but that probably takes a little more time and would cost you a little bit. They should be covering this. (Again, my opinion.)

 

[gearchruncher]

It would be great to get one of the independent EV repair shops to replace a faulty PCS and then open it up to see what caused it to fail.

Anyone that paid Tesla to have their PCS replaced has the right to keep the failed PCS. No independent shop needed.
If someone wants to send one to me, I can check it out, as I'm sure other people can too.

 

[gearchruncher]

I would even go as far as saying you should follow up with a small claims suit, but that probably takes a little more time and would cost you a little bit.

100% everyone should file arbitration / small claims.
I'm not 100% sure it's OK to file small claims after going to arbitration. If you decide arbitration, I believe it's binding. Of all the arguments I would expect a small claims judge to accept, it's Tesla saying "your honor, this customer already took the arbitration option on this disagreement which was settled in that venue. I move to dismiss"

 

[MP3Mike]

100% everyone should file arbitration / small claims.
I'm not 100% sure it's OK to file small claims after going to arbitration. If you decide arbitration, I believe it's binding. Of all the arguments I would expect a small claims judge to accept, it's Tesla saying "your honor, this customer already took the arbitration option on this disagreement which was settled in that venue. I move to dismiss"

I can't find it right now, but I swear that one of the documents that Tesla provided said that arbitration was binding on Tesla, but not the consumer. (Such that you could file a small claims suit after a failed arbitration claim.) Maybe they removed that statement from the current agreement.

 

[father_of_6]

Because each arbitration claims costs Tesla ~$2k, which is more than what it would cost them to perform the repair.

This is even more strange. At the point of an arbitration claim, Tesla could save money by providing a goodwill repair, yet they choose to fight their own customer instead.

Probably this is just a matter of bandwidth... they don't have someone whose job it is to review every arbitration claim to determine if a better solution is available.

 

[ucmndd]

Anyone that paid Tesla to have their PCS replaced has the right to keep the failed PCS. No independent shop needed.

Yes, subject to some minutiae in various state laws (for example in CA you have to request to keep old parts at the time of service write up / estimate acceptance).

Also expect for a magic and likely significant “core charge” to show up on your bill the moment you ask.

 

[ucmndd]

This is even more strange. At the point of an arbitration claim, Tesla could save money by providing a goodwill repair, yet they choose to fight their own customer instead.

Probably this is just a matter of bandwidth...

I think it’s a matter of precedent. Fighting one arbitration claim, even if it costs more than the repair in dispute, is worthwhile if it upholds the company interpretation of coverage and doesn’t result in a deluge of similar claims as a result of doing something “goodwill”.

 

[gearchruncher]

I think it’s a matter of precedent. Fighting one arbitration claim, even if it costs more than the repair in dispute, is worthwhile if it upholds the company interpretation of coverage and doesn’t result in a deluge of similar claims as a result of doing something “goodwill”.

Is arbitration precedent setting? If Tesla wins one arbitration does that mean the AAA finds automatically for them in every case that looks like the same thing?

Also expect for a magic and likely significant “core charge” to show up on your bill the moment you ask.

If Tesla charges a core charge, then I would ask to have them install a refurbished one at a discounted price. If they do not sell refurbs, then ask them what the cores are used for.

Plus, if the module has a core charge, Tesla's invoice must say it by CA law:

Do I need to inform the customer about the core charge or include it on the estimate?

Along with the list of all parts used and auto repair charges, the core charge must be disclosed to the customer and separately itemized on the estimate.