Are adjustable toe arms necessary for better rear tire wear?

[njmurvin]

I have a 2019 Raven MX. The most I seem to get out of rear tires is about 20k miles. I'd like to increase that if it doesn't require too much of an investment as I only plan to keep this car another 2 years.

Based on several threads here, it would seem that N2itive and Macsboost might be the best contenders. N2itive is 2-3 times the cost of Macsboost and they suggest that you need adjustable toe arms while Macsboost says you don't. Which is it? Can I install only the Macsboost camber arms and still increase my rear tire life?

 

[ngng]

Shims won't work on the legacy X. You need replacement control and toe arms.

 

[njmurvin]

From the Macsboost website describing their product for the Legacy X:

“These camber arms do not require toe arms for significant adjustment and should be all that you need to fix your camber issues. Instructions included to use your stock arms as a baseline and adjust these with our new spec. This job can be performed by anyone competent with hand tools and familiar with setting toe. These arms will more than pay for themselves on the first set of tires!”

 

[!igs]

Stock arms have toe adjustment.

 

[Red-X]

Stock arms have toe adjustment.

View attachment 976014

No not legacy MX!!

 

[MrBombjoy]

A 2019 Raven has toe adjustment stock. Probably earlier years too.
The rear toe arm bolts are cammed and can be adjusted. See picture from the Tesla service manual.

https://service.tesla.com/docs/ModelX/ServiceManual/en-us/GUID-455FA66B-9EF4-4962-834B-CB57580B8F56.html

If you're maintaining stock-like ride heights, the OEM toe arms are likely adequate.
If you install new sensor links to lower the car significantly then you'll probably need toe arms.

I installed Hardrace arms and had no trouble getting toe back to spec using the stock adjustment.

 

[mxnym]

No not legacy MX!!

Legacy include both 1st gen and raven. Raven has a different suspension (the main thing to make it Raven iirc). Toe arms are suspension components. I don't know if Raven has adjustable arms, but it sounds like macboost is saying they do.

 

[Red-X]

Legacy include both 1st gen and raven. Raven has a different suspension (the main thing to make it Raven iirc). Toe arms are suspension components. I don't know if Raven has adjustable arms, but it sounds like macboost is saying they do.

Raven, and I think earlier MX, has adjustable eccentric bolts for toe-in, but no adjustable arms from Tesla new deliveries.

 

[njmurvin]

They don't appear to differentiate Raven from pre-Raven (same product for both) nor do they imply that the stock toe arms for those models are adjustable. The way I read it is they're saying you don't need different toe arms to achieve the camber adjustment necessary to fix the uneven tire wear issue. I'd love to hear from someone who has installed these on a legacy X (Raven or not) - preferably someone who installed them DIY so we can hear the gruesome (or not so gruesome) details of the installation as well as the effectiveness of the product while retaining the stock toe arms.

 

[mxnym]

That take makes sense, but there's a whole thread where @ngng goes on and on about how toe is much more impactful for tire wear than camber, so the claim may not make sense even if the take is accurate. OTOH, maybe the minimal adjustment available is enough in most cases.

 

[ngng]

That take makes sense, but there's a whole thread where @ngng goes on and on about how toe is much more impactful for tire wear than camber, so the claim may not make sense even if the take is accurate. OTOH, maybe the minimal adjustment available is enough in most cases.

At this point I feel like I'm just repeating myself lol. Legacy install is easy. Legacy will need toe arms if you want to adjust them

 

[Red-X]

They don't appear to differentiate Raven from pre-Raven (same product for both) nor do they imply that the stock toe arms for those models are adjustable. The way I read it is they're saying you don't need different toe arms to achieve the camber adjustment necessary to fix the uneven tire wear issue. I'd love to hear from someone who has installed these on a legacy X (Raven or not) - preferably someone who installed them DIY so we can hear the gruesome (or not so gruesome) details of the installation as well as the effectiveness of the product while retaining the stock toe arms.

I have installed camber arms from Unplugged and tried to have -1.0 degree camber in low . It was not possible to set toe-in to an acceptable value with OEM adjusting means on the left side. I had to go back to -1.5 degree to be able to have acceptable toe-in. Raven 2019.

 

[njmurvin]

I have installed camber arms from Unplugged and tried to have -1.0 degree camber in low . It was not possible to set toe-in to an acceptable value with OEM adjusting means on the left side. I had to go back to -1.5 degree to be able to have acceptable toe-in. Raven 2019.

Great feedback. Was the -1.5 degrees enough to solve the rear tire wear issue?

 

[geordi]

Classic S & X have the same under body. Adjustable toe arms may be helpful even with the arms from Macsboost. On a 2013 S, the rear tires with only Macsboost arms were brand new and destroyed in 8000 miles. These were 60 K tires and I was pissed.

Electrified garage had to work for hours trying to get the alignment dialed in because they did not have good adjustment position and could not do much of anything with the toe.

I do need to have my X looked at by them, I have the whole kit from N2itive, and I feel like there could be some efficiency to be found.

 

[Red-X]

Great feedback. Was the -1.5 degrees enough to solve the rear tire wear issue?

I don´t know because only 3k miles, but the old right tire had -1.5 degrees according to measurements when the arms were installed. This was not enough, even if it was better than the left tire which had -2.5 degrees with very bad inner wear. Replaced both rear at about 15k. Total toe ealier 0.27 afterwards 0.19, may be a little better for wear.

To be sure I have to install at least a toe arm on the left side! In my opinion you must down to below -1.0 degree!

 

[njmurvin]

Good to know. In my case, I plan to keep the car another 2 years. That's 40k miles max at our current driving rate. I just replaced the rears yesterday. At 20k per set of tires without changing anything, I'm looking at another set in 1 year and a set when I sell it. I paid about $700 for a pair of Kumho 22s. That's $1400 in tires if I do nothing and just feed it rear tires. I don't think I can justify the N2itive costs in my case ~$1500+install - especially if I need both camber and toe arms.

FWIW, I asked the tech at America's Tire about flipping the tires every 5K miles to help even out the wear. He said they don't recommend it but they wouldn't refuse to do it. The tire treads are supposedly asymmetric so it's probably not a good idea to do that.

 

[ngng]

Good to know. In my case, I plan to keep the car another 2 years. That's 40k miles max at our current driving rate. I just replaced the rears yesterday. At 20k per set of tires without changing anything, I'm looking at another set in 1 year and a set when I sell it. I paid about $700 for a pair of Kumho 22s. That's $1400 in tires if I do nothing and just feed it rear tires. I don't think I can justify the N2itive costs in my case ~$1500+install - especially if I need both camber and toe arms.

This is kind of where I landed regarding aftermarket suspension. Most people have not done the math, and it really does not make sense unless you are sure you are keeping the car.

FWIW, I asked the tech at America's Tire about flipping the tires every 5K miles to help even out the wear. He said they don't recommend it but they wouldn't refuse to do it. The tire treads are supposedly asymmetric so it's probably not a good idea to do that.

5k is unnecessary, I flipped mine when the rear inside tire started to get low. This was around 12-15k? I have a thread somewhere. Basically the cost of mount and balance to double your usable tire life. As far recommendations from America's Tire, I would take them with a grain of salt.

 

[njmurvin]

5k is unnecessary, I flipped mine when the rear inside tire started to get low. This was around 12-15k? I have a thread somewhere. Basically the cost of mount and balance to double your usable tire life. As far recommendations from America's Tire, I would take them with a grain of salt.

And that’s why I’ve reached out to Kumho customer support. Flipping the tires to even out the wear seems reasonable unless they insist it will be dangerous to do so.

 

[geordi]

Swapping the tire locations will be fine - if they are directional tread (which will be indicated on the actual tire sidewall) then they will have to be dismounted to keep them rotating the proper direction while changing their side position on the car. That's more work but not a big deal. Chalk the tread with an arrow where you want the outside of the rim to be, so they don't screw it up.

If the inside edge of the tire has reached the markers though, the tires should probably be replaced. That's when you need to think about the arms to prevent such useless tire waste in the future.

 

[ngng]

Swapping the tire locations will be fine - if they are directional tread (which will be indicated on the actual tire sidewall) then they will have to be dismounted to keep them rotating the proper direction while changing their side position on the car. That's more work but not a big deal. Chalk the tread with an arrow where you want the outside of the rim to be, so they don't screw it up.

If the inside edge of the tire has reached the markers though, the tires should probably be replaced. That's when you need to think about the arms to prevent such useless tire waste in the future.

We are talking about flipping a tire, not rotating. Flipping allows you to mount the tire on another wheel and move the worn inside, to the outside. Basically doubling the life of your tire.